Modifying Crossovers

I apologize to the audiophile gods.   Nobody can know more than someone who has hung up a shingle and become an OEM.

To get a crossover with high end components you'll have to spend $100k or more.  I am currently building new external crossovers for my speakers.  I spent $2300 on caps, resistors, and inductors.   Here is a photo of the final layout completed just last night.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/5maaKbDKvpNdjGja9

@invalid Look at my photo above and there are some very good suggestions.

While many upgrade the capacitors, and resistors aren’t expensive to upgrade, inductors are often neglected, that is, not upgraded to a level consistent with the capacitors, where most put their money. I went with hand wound beeswax foil inductors.

I kept all the same values as the OEM designer, who is excellent.

Jerry

@falmgren "needs modifications" is too strong, and you probably meant it that way.  But if an $11K speaker couldn't be improved, there would be no need for a $12K speaker, would there?

Crossovers are one of the areas where speaker manufacturers tend to save money.  Like I posted above, I am spending $2300+ on parts.   the improvements will be small.  They would be unnoticalbe if I was an average consumer with a relatively inexpensive but powerful amp driven by his computer and the onboard DAC.  Also, crossovers are invisible (except on high end speakers where they actually give you a great crossover, then sometimes they make them visible below plexiglass).  But if you want your $11K speaker to sound like a $50K speaker, ugrading he crossover will be necessary.  I guarantee that an $11k speaker doesn't use $2300 worth of parts in the crossover.

Most, or at least many, upgraders like me, do not feel the need to change the design of the crossover, just the quality of the parts.  I am using the exact same values that the OEM used, just MUCH MUCH higher quality components.  

Also, the wiring inside the speaker can usaualy be upgraded, I'm changing to Duelund Cotton oil insulated pure copper wire at least one gauge larger than the OEM used.

I know several people who have done this upgrade and I heard before-and-after on one of them.  Huge improvement to those of us who are dealing in portions of that last 2%.  Probably un-noticable to the average consumer.

Jerry

Clearly there are a few members here, a vocal minority that one person has called a "consensus" that think it is crazy to touch an OEM component and if God (the OEM) had intended you to have a better crossover, he would have given you one.

I’m fine with all those who don’t think it is a good idea. I think they are perhaps trying to come up with a reason why they shouldn’t do it. If it were to become the next hot mod, then they might be subconsciously forced to do it. Like cables.

As for doing A/B, installing a new crossover involves a lot of soldering of wires. In my case there are 6 seperate connections. Building an A/B would be a lot of work and expense. Those of us who have heard the mods, evaluated them technically, and understand what we are achieveing do not need to be convinced that it will sound better. Let me put it this way, there are likely components in the signal path in your speakers that you would shudder if they were in the signal path in your amp. Sand cast resistors that cost $1.99 apiece for one. Remember all those expensive bypass capacitors amp manufacturers use? Your speaker doesn’t have those, but mine will in a couple of weeks.

A friend has very similar speakers to mine.  Mine sounded slightly better until he upgraded crossovers.  Now every time I go to his house I'm reminded that I need to get my crossover upgrade done.

So don’t anybody feel you need to approve or disapprove of crossover modifications. Just like anything else in life, if it isn’t for you, don’t do it.

Jerry

@jaytor I was headed that way (internal) but I went with Jantzen foil inductors and I finally gave up trying to make everything fit.  I even had one built and disassembled it last night.  Good luck with your upgrade. 

Jerry

@nrenter Good post.  BTW, the new crossovers I'm making are going to be external with a plexiglass top.  

As for "is it worth it?   I'll have about $3k in this upgrade by the time I'm done.  I don't expect it to be a religious experience.   But I think I'll get more out of it than I got out of my $4k streamer upgrade.  Probably less than I got out of my $12K DAC upgrade.  Definitely I've spent $3k at times on amps that turned out not to be an upgrade.

Jerry

@boxertwin12  Indeed full range drivers have their fans and I'm glad you enjoy them.  I prefer to go the other way.  thanks.  Jerry

@vair68robert My internal crossovers are on 2 boards and to replace them interally with bigger components would have taken at least 3 boards.  I appreciate the simplicity but am no expert at designing crossovers.  I'm going with the same values as the original design.  Sounds like you are too. Enjoy.  

@lemonhaze Good eye identifying the components.  Indeed those are Duelund bypass capacitors.  They are actually in the midrange circuits.  Didn't feel a bypass was necessary for the low frequencies.  The Path resistors are proven by friends that have done this mod so I'm not anticipating trying others.  The resistor in the heat sink is a 30W powertron. This is indeed the low frequency circuit.  I"ve had good luck with the duelund wire and have bought enough of it to rewire the speaker with it.  

Indeed, this is going to be an externnal crossover.  I started trying to put it back inside but there just isn't enough room.  I was going to have to put it on 4 boards mounted various places around the inside of the box.  So this panel that I have everything mounted on is about 12x12" and I'll be building a polished and oiled walnut box for it to go into.  I think I'll put a plexiglass top on it.

There currently are no push on connectors in the speaker.  Eveything is getting soldered up with Mundorf silver/gold solder.

thanks for the suggestions.

Jerry

@lemonhaze   I've worked 40+ years in an industry where all equipment is continuously in service with very short outage times.  So there isn't much testing time available.  Generally the engineers (I'm the engineering manager) do a lot of research and have one chance to get it right.  It needs to be well designed, prefabricated, and ready to instll quickly.  Which is my plan here.  I plan to have my speakers down for 1 day, at most 2.

So I guess it is natural that I took that approach with this project.  And a good thing too since I've been very slow to get the internal crossovers made.  Got traction again when I decided to go external and think I'll have them done in a couple of weeks.  Picked up the wood for the caninet this morning after my hike.  Right now I'm waiting for my sawblade to come back from the sharpener.   Also the Neutrix connectors for the cable from the crossover to the speaker were backordered but I found them somewhere else.  It's al coming together.

So I don't plan to try it with and without the bypass capacitors.  I chose the .1uF Dueland Copper-Sn foil based on experience and recommendations from friends.  If I was doing it now I might go with the copper silver for $30 more each. I agree with Erik that .1uF is the right size.

If you are anticipating doing this job yourself feel free to send me a PM.  As a DIYer I'm always willing to spend time helping others.

Jerry

@vair68robert excellent point.

@unreceivedogma you misread.

@lemonhaze My good will stands but it sounds like you know more about upgrading crossovers than I do.  My component choices were educated guesses based on manufacturer reputations, online reviews, and respected opininions of a good friend.

I have them both built and plan to cut out the walnut box and maybe get it glued together today.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/drhDHtD7pZ5cbQf39

@vair68robert The before crossovers are still installed.  I pulled them out enough to sketch a wiring diagram and reverse engineer them.  Here are a couple of photos (i use google photos, would appreciate any advice on how to get a preview to show).

Upper and midrange crossover:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Fh2wFvdbFAcm8AqU6

Bass crossover

https://photos.app.goo.gl/7oJtoz7v72gsC3s47

I'm obviously combining them onto one board.

Jerry

@vair68robert I toyed with the idea of having my crossover box made by a friend that does woodwork.  Since there are no external controls it isn't hard to make.

Seems making boxes and selling them is a nitch that someone should fill.  I don't enjoy woodwork enough and don't need a new business but it would not be hard to mass produce them.  Maybe I'll find a young guy and back him financially.

My plan was to replace components  on the boards and leave them internal.  I was going to have to add a 3rd board for the large inductor.  In fact I made one of them but it was going to be real tight.  Here is one of the boards (since disassembled):

https://photos.app.goo.gl/stNMSckHnLVPngVdA

:

@johnk I respectfully disagree with you.  I'll fight to the death for your right to your opinion.

Do you have an example of someone you personally know, even better yet, that you heard before and after, of that sounded worse.  I have a friend with a similar speaker to mine.  Mine sounded better before the upgrade, now his sounds much better.  

Every manufacturer is different, but IMO even high end manufacturers tend to cut corners on the (invisible) crossovers.

Jerry