Rbsteno it is not about better it is about filling a large room with sound.
That is tricky and difficult to pull off.
You need prodigious bass and great efficiency |
You need a much larger set of loudspeakers with a lot of bass to fill up that size room.
Legacys sound like better versions of the Tritons.
A paIr of focus will do a great job.
95db efficient 22hz bass
High power handling.
Stunning cabinetry.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor Legacy dealers. |
Mjstoyn most large panels suck. Try an image that is out of focus, the large flat diaphram causes diffraction which gives you a very large unfocused soundstage as both your midrange and top end freq are bouncing off the diaphragm.
Add in poor bass your back wave is cancelling out your front wave which leads to no impact. Even with subs not realistic sounding.
Then add in low efficiency and compression when played loud.
A large poïnt source with room correction does work in a large room.
Go to a live music show ever see a giant set of panels?
Big room you need big dynamic loudspeakers |
Yes Larry and if you undertstand acoustics you will understand that most loudspeakers will not fill up a room that big, you must look at total square footage, and if the room is open to another room then you have an even larger amount of air to fill add in more requirements in power handling and bass if the listener likes to play loud.
Salk does use excellent drivers, however, because you sell direct doesn’t mean that much, their are economies of scale that enable large manufacturers to design all their own drivers that are often far superior to the collection of parts that JIm Salk and many home brew guys use.
Also Larry just because in your opinion that a pair of $6k Salks sounded better to you than a $60k speaker means nothing, first the $60k speaker could have been shoe horned into a tiny room or may have been setup like crap. Horse for courses.
It is interesting that we heard the Salks at both Axpona and at CAP, as we do listen to products that compete with ours, and neither Salk at either show was blowing us away, nor were the uber expensive Von Schweikerts, nor were the Magicos, our favorites at Axpona were Wilson, Focal, Vimberg, Golden Ear and the Alta Audio, and the T+A speakers were the best at the show.
Back to the matter at hand, Giant room 20 by 40 with 12 foot ceilings means a speaker that can play loud with prodigious bass, high power handling and great efficiency.
We brought in Legacy for a client who wanted to DJ and had a 300 watt per channel amplifier, the Focus can handle 500 watts, is 95db and has bass to 18hz and they will fill up a large room with ease!
Please show me a conventional high end loudpeaker that can do that.
Salk makes only one loudspeaker that will do the job with the exception of not knowing how much power the speaker can hold and that is the $13k Salk powered Exotica 3, which is 3db less efficient, and has bass to 25hz vs the Legacy’s 18hz bass.
The other speaker line that will do that is the Tektons, we have heard the Tektons and were not blown away by their treble, and their cabinetry is ugly, but they will also do the job and they are a great deal for the money.
A pair of Focus XD come with self amplified bass and you can add a Wavelet room correction processor to help tame the awful acoustics that will invariably be a part of a large room with high ceilings.
Yes you can add a set of subwoofers, and providing you can roll off the bass going to the main speakrs that can also work but then you have the added cost and space constrains and look of having four boxes in the room rather than two.
Hey what do we know 30 years professional sound system design, trained in Theater design by Russ Hershelman, acoustics courses by Tony Grimmani of Lucas sound.
You must factor in all of these factors just because you use exotic drivers like a Raal ribon doesn’t account for much when you blow up your tweeter or launch a midrange driver because your speakers are not designed to fill up the space.
And you can roll your eyes as well, as Legacy uses a custom German made Heil AMT tweeter and midrange, coupled to an Italian made silk and graphite midrange driver, so Bill’s drivers aren’t too shabby either.
The best thing is for this gentleman to visit a few dealers or go to a good regional show and find out for himself.
Good luck OP.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Legacy dealers |
Paliden where are you located |
Mtdining, the Sabrina are excellent loudpeakers that are not designed for this size room.
You would need a set of Daw or Alexias to provide enough air movement for this size room.
Large room = high efficiency, high spl, deep bass, physically larger loudspeakers.
It is really that simple, for this reason we recommend speakers like the Legacy Focus, Focus XD with Wavelet, or the Aeris they will fill up a large room beautifully, are they the best speakers in the price range that is a different question, they are really great sounding loudspeakers for the money that will work acoustically in the OP's very large space.
Add in the fact that the OP can go perhaps to a Legacy dealer in his state and listen to the speakers or here them at shows is a bonus.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Legacy dealers |
Rja so sorry you feel that way, you said a lot of things directed against us that were not true, we never bashed Salk speakers just the times when we heard them and weren’t impressed by them and we didn’t say they were bad, on the contrary,j ust that we weren’t blown away by them.
We also mentioned several times that there are Salk models with the active woofers would do the job far better than their passive models, we also mentioned Tekton both of these lines we do not sell.
We also mentioned that there were many speakers at that show that didn’t impress us either and these were expensive well respected brands.
Look our experience is very different, we have done shows with 30 foot by 20 rooms, and we have heard systems that did not accheive room lock in a giant room where the bass did not fill the room and the sound was okay and not exceptional.
One notable example is the $1 million dollar plus Von Schweikert Vac systems as shown in Axpona and Cap, giant rooms with loudspeakers that just couldn’t fill them. When you accheive room lock you will feel the bass when the note is there. This system in a room half or one third the giant ballrooms size and the sound would have been fantastic.
Gndrbob, the Vandy 7 with the dual subs in the giant room they were in at Axpona were also poor, these might be superb speakers but there is no substitute for displacement and they just didn't fill the room.
The big Magicos with the dual giant subs and a lot of power did fill a large open space at a norminal listenng distance.
Many of the loudspeakers mentioned here are good loudspeakers that will not work optimally in a giant room. Same speakers in a smaller room will sound excellent.
It is our belief that the world’s top loudspeaker companies do produce their own drivers and spend millions on research and developement.
Seas and Scanspeak are tiny companies with revenues in the millions not in the hundreds of millions, both of these companies produce excellent drivers, but there is a clarity in drivers such as the Acuton diamond tweeter and midrange that just arent available in more conventional cone materials, yes Acuton is a small driver manufacturer but nobody other than them have figured out a way to make a pure Diamond midrange, and the reason nobody uses these drivers is cost.
Kef is one of the most throughly engineered companies out there, so is B&W and Focal and Paradigm. We tend to favor the bigger companies for one reason which is not price but ultimate performance tends to be with these companies, which have the raw engineering talent and budget to push the boundaries of sound.
And yes if Bose wanted to invest in beating the best high end audio companies they could spend $30 million dollars in a heartbeat, it is fortunate for our beloved high end brands that Bose doesn’t desire to do so.
We would be happy to contest facts with facts, the truth of what we say in terms of loudspeakers in large rooms is not our opinions it is established facts.
Look at the sound systems in a concert, you will see stacks of compression horn tweeters and midrange drivers coupled to stacks of large 15 inch bass bins with thousands of watts of power.
The reason is spf falls off depending on distance, total bass response in room is the output of the speaker coupled with room gain which is the effect that the room will bring on reinforcing the bass.
Most of this discussion would be simple is the OP has a more normal sized room with a lower ceiling.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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No rja we didn’t bad mouth Salk speakers, we heard them and thought they sounded good but not spectacular at both CAP and Axpona.
Also you can't demo Salk speakers he builds to order, you have to buy them on faith.
Mjyostyn, after 30 years of professional audio sales and design can assure you we abolustely know what we are talking about.
Every large flat panel speaker will have a terrible image because of defraction, the larger your panel in order to have any lower bass frequncies at all means you have a giant surface area to which all of your frequencies will bounce off of, we had Quad ELS 63, ESL pro, Magneplaner 3.5 over the years, and none of them could throw a realisticly sized image not to mention selling Apogee, and Martin Logans for years.
Then you have the issue with dynamics, a large panel can not move air with the force of a dynamic driver. Play a pair of Wilsons audio loudspeakers at realitstic concert levels and put on a drum recording, what you get sounds real, the panels don’t have the accelerative impact of sealed box with dynamic drivers.
If you like your lead singer to be excessively tall and wide, please enjoy your perverted view of reality
Mykyosyn, good speakers we like: Vimberg, Rockport, Paradigm Personas, Wilsons, Kef Blade and Rererence, Legacy, Focal. .
Again Twoleft ears, you need greater efficiency and deep bass to fill up such a large room only Salks Encore 3 version is really suitable. |
Twoleftears unless subs are used still way too small for the op room also not efficient enough.
The encore 3 is the only Salk that woulp work to cover that much air space.
Legacy, Tekton, Salk encore would really do the job.
Just currious twoleftears was Paradigm using their electronics? |
Silfoth we didnt bad mouth Salk we in fact said for the Op large room he would need the Salk model with the powered woofers.
Nor did we badmouth Wilson
Our quote
Mtdining, the Sabrina are excellent loudpeakers that are not designed for this size room.
You would need a set of Daw or Alexias to provide enough air movement for this size room
Rbach there are no words suitable for you. You and Rebstero are complaining we only endorse our products didnt we just say above
Our quote
Twoleftears unless subs are used still way too small for the op room also not efficient enough.
The encore 3 is the only Salk that would work to cover that much air space.
Legacy, Tekton, Salk encore would really do the job.
We dont sell Salk or Tekton now do we?
Silfoth look at myostyn reply above and see who is being nasty unless the moderators removed it he said some pretty insulting things.
Big flat planers have tons of problems.
To recap to fill up a big room properly
1. High efficiency speakers
2. High power handling
3. High spl output the combo of above as well as having low levels of compression
4. Deep bass output
Horns with subs, compression drivers, dynamic loudspeakers, large dynamic loudspeakers will all do it.
It is really that simple. |
No Marklarsen 18 by 25 by 10 is a much smaller room then 20 by 40 by 12
Nothing about bias the Pearls are far more appropriate. |
Yes Sfoth and both Joseh and Salk can spend $4 million dollars on driver developement right?
There is a reason why Kef, B&W, Focal, Paradigm, are the size they are.
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Keeglam the Martin Logans are NOT Flat they are curved.
Apogee and Magneplaner are flat. Martin Logans and not conventional flat panels ,they do image better than a traditional flat panel, however, the image in most flat panels tends to be larger than life which is a cool effect but does not sound as real as a well set up pair of conventional dynamic loudspeakers.
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Rja we speak our minds sorry if we come across bluntly.
For you haters we dont miss your business we cant teach a closed mind.
As per the op very large room there is a difference in filling a large room properly and it requires a lot of displacement.
We have allready broached the subject and gave the op our recomendations 1 speaker we sell 2 we do not.
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Larry we say we are dealers and we have every right to be here.
As per your quip about Salks or brand x sounding better than a commercial brand a lot of dealers showrooms are not optomized for sound. Some dealers have poor soundrooms or dont sell good matching electronics so somtimes an opinion of a product heard may not be as good as it could be.
Sorry to rain on your Salk love affair yes his speakers are a great value.
However there is only so far you can go with stock Seas drivers.
It is our feeling that the true leaders in any industry design their own parts which are usually vastly superior this requires a substantial capital investment.
Look at Rockport, YG, Magico, Paradigm, Kef, B&W, Focal there is a reason why their speakers are in the rarified air of compannies that continue to push innovation and whose products are consistantly setting the bar.
This is also why these products cost more to buy. Many large companies spend milions of dollars in R&D.
Salk falls into the nice guy that builds a good product by stuffing a box with great parts and selling direct which does win over a lot of guys.
Sorry to disagee but the leaders in the field of loudspeaker design all work for companies that can afford them.
Guys like Floyd Toole, Lawrence Dickie, are pushing that bar, Jack Oclee brown is another. Ever heard of Harmon, Vivid and Kef guess all of these guys produce inferior products to Salk right?
Sorry larry for having an opinion if i want to buy a real sports car i would go to a Porsche dealer not the kid selling a souped up Subaru down the street for a lot less.
Good luck to you.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor |
Cleeds right on.
What you have going on are people whose feelings are hurt if you dont endorse their choices or believe like they do.
We move in and out of products if we find a better one these are all just tools we are not married to our sound systems.
As dealers we endorse our products because we believe them to be excellent and considering we sell multiple brands of loudspeakers we dont feel one is necessarily better than another but better for certain tastes and attributes.
All you guys need to cool down your negativity, the advice we gave to the OP is sound.
As stated before there is a difference in just playing loud and filling up a very large room with sound.
Bill Dudelston of Legacy is in to displacement hence he uses 12 inch or larger woofers which have higher power handling then many of Salks designs which use 8inch woofers.
If you want to fill a big room, play loud, not overheat your amp, have headroom and not cook your drivers you need large speakers with high output and power handling.
Many of the choices given here dont fit that mold. High efficiency means less power accross the voice coil to accheive the same spl which means less chance of failure of either the amp or the drivers.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Dep we have no issue with Salk he does seem to make a nice speaker.
We also endorsed both Tekton and Salk models that would work in the Op large room please see our other posts.
The points raised were to combat 2psyops line that small indedendent companies are better than the big boys.
Nor do we think that Legacy makes the worlds best speakers they happen to sound great and are also an outstanding value.
Legacy buys their drivers from other companies so they too would fall
Into a similar set of caveats.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor |
Sfoth what your major malfunction? Sir Green Mountain audio was not disparaged in any way, the point being made is that a tiny loudspeaker company, or electronics company run by a single guy has a built in limitation.
Most of these companies do not have a continuency plan if the lead designer, kicks the bucket.
David Belles makes very nice products, we passed on the line as David Belles is getting up there in years, there was no discussion of who would continue in the event of his demise.
Sorry Sfoth but we didn’t write the book humans die, mortality is part of life, for that reason Merlin was mentioned as Bobby Pavolivic died, so did Roy Johnson. What are the customers of Green Mountain to do when or if their loudspeakers break? What is the now resale value? Can you get your loudspeakers serviced at all?
That was the point,
One of the reasons we tend to stay with bigger manufacturers is that these companies have grown to the point where they can weather any storm and stock parts for 10-20 years back.
Look what happened to Thiel when Jim died, they did not have a contingency plan, and they were a bigger company, then some of the companies mentioned.
So this issue should be considered a least in a small degree when a new company gets on the scene.
In the case of Salk at least he uses parts from major vendors so this conversation may or may not apply.
Good luck to you sir.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor |
Ihaguy, sorry for having a dislike of planers, are they horrible, no they are not be we have a long history of living with and working with them.
The major issue with planers is that the image tends to be very disembodied, we call that the 8 foot James Tayor effect, sure it is a cool effect but it is not realistic.
Another issue is the restricted dynamics.
We have heard the Apogree Grandes, and the Martin Logan Statements and both of these giant planer/cone subwoofer hybrids suffered from similar issues in their day and where both fun sounding mega speakers but neither one of those flagship products were truly believable.
Fast forward to today, with the best dynamic drivers and speaker systems you can listen to a large set of speakers that dissapear and yet the images sizes are realiistic and the speakers convey the dynamic flow of live music.
In the past we have lived with original Quad ESL 63, Quad US monitors coupled with dual Entec subwoofers, as well as Magneplanner 3.6 and all of these systems were lovely with the right music but failed to sound realistic, the Wilson Watt Puppy 3/2 and the 5 changed that for us
At the Capitol Audio Fest the Wilson Alexs the giant $110k ones sounded amazing on Krell gear, the images were spooky real, and at Axpona the big Focals were extraordinary.
Both of these systems sounded way more realistic than any of the planer systems have ever sounded to us.
Again it all comes down to personal taste and what sounds real to you.
Milostyne, dude you need some help: "My own mantra is, never trust a human who is trying to sell you something. Humans are far to dangerous. Rock and Roll!
All of life is interacting with other humans, if you ever try to ask a person out for a date you are selling something, when you go to work and you have a discussion between another guy discussing sports or politics you are tyring to use statsitical data and opinions to get your point across that is also selling, selling doesn’t necessarilly mean that money has to exchange hands.
As per your past experiences with dealers we dont' try to shove products down anyone's throat, if we have a product which we think will improve someones musicall experience we will recommend said product, if not on many an occassion we have told the person to keep what they have, sometimes keeping what you got is the best advice until a change makes sense.
We don’t have to quote a book to know what these things sound like we have lived with them and went into a store everyday for close to 13 years and played with the most exotic and expensive reference loudspeakers you get to learn a lot of what works and what doesn’t, not to mention going to shows and peoples houses and hearing lots of systems.
And by the way we are not trying to sell the OP anything he could be any where in the world, our suggestions are for him to decide, If he wants to come to our shop and hear our products that is fine but the likelyhood of selling him anything is very remote.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
2psyop, with any story there are two sides. One did the defective speaker come from a dealer or was used?
How do you know the exact specifics? Do you think this disgruntled person telling the story was necessarily telling both sides if there was one.
You also omit one key fact, the day that Jim Salk has a heart attack, or gets hit by a bus, ( we don’t mean this just making a point,) what does this mean for your resale, or servicing then?
Look at the poor schlubs that own Green Mountain Audio, or Merlin or a 100 tiny independent manufacturers that have come and gone intersesting that that idea never enters your head. Sure there are instances when larger companies go belly up, however, innovative ones keep on comming out with newer and better products that keep on pushing the envelope which keeps the company afloat.
What happens 10 years latter when you blow a driver and that driver isn’t made any more and Mr. Salk doesn’t keep a ton of spare parts like Kef and B&W does?
You may dream all you want but the biggest and most successful companies got that way from careing about their customers.
Also one of the things that a good dealer does is to make sure you get good service from the company. Just knowing who to talk to can make a huge difference.
If you want to talk to Jim Salk at an audio show vs us, no biggie, Jim Salk has experience limited to his designs, while we have 30 years of playing with, setting up and working with many of the world’s greatest speaker manufacturers.
Sure there will always be innovative small companies, but realize this that buying drivers and putting them in a nice box, does not a speaker company make that is the definition of an assembly company.
If you want to see real innovation in advancing the audio art it lies with the companies that have the resources to really push the envelope.
Good luck to you.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
ihasguy, there are always a few groups of anything.
In our opinion after having worked with many, many different types of planers we have yet to find a single system that is based on a flat diaphram to have a life like and believable image, with the kind of bass reponse and dynamic shadings which we have found in either line source loudspeakers like the Scaenas, or the best dynamic loudspeakers.
The issue with the best dynamics is that you need bigger speakers to create the same sense of image space, the difference is that these speakers then create images which are more in the size and scope of a realistic image size, do the best dynamic speakers have flaws of course they do, it depends on what you find appealing.
The OP should look at a set of JBL they will fit our criteria for high efficiency, high power handling and high output, don’t know the bass specs on the model you quoted.
As per the major malfuction line who was attacking whom? Sfoth made a bunch of obnoxious comments because in the context of comparing a large manufactuer to a tiny one man operation, we mentioned a little thought of fact which is a one man company may have zero plans for contuinity in the case of the death of the principle.
Mortality is a fact of life and one of the advantages of purchasing a JBL or Focal or KEF, etc vs a tiny company like a Green Mountain Audio, Merlin etc is the likely hood of getting service and support for many many years into the future, we also mentioned as Salk uses good commercial drivers that that may or may not be a problem.
Honestly guys many of you need to ligthen up. These are discussions on products, nobody is instulating anyone’s wife.
There are Porsche Guys who like small 4 cylinder or 6 cylinder tubo changed engines and Ferrari guys who like 8, 12, 0r 16 cylinder naturally aspriated engines, which approach is better depends on the taste of the driver.
We still stick by our points about flat planers that there is nothing to push against, and when you bass wave is out of phase from the in phase front wave form as these are diapoles you have diapolar cancellation, and poor bass and dynamics. Couple that to an image which tends to be too large based on deffraction you will see that for the strengths of low coloration and a fast clean light weight driver you still have those weakness to overcome.
The only planer to date we have found which did not seem to have many of these issues is the Mura SP1.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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Sforth you completely misinterpreted the point.
It is not a sales issue it should be noted as a concern with any small company that is run by a single designer that was the point, had nothing to do with the designer of Green Mountain audio.
There was no joke made about Merlin either, the fact that anyone with access to a good cabinet shop can build copies of these loudseakers, buying drivers is not the same thing as designing both the driverj and the entire loudspeaker from scratch.
For this reason the worlds top loudspeaker companies show a commitment to the capital expenditures to push driver technology which is the reason why Magico, Rockport, Focal, Kef, B&W, Paradigm, ATC, Harbeth ect are the companies which dominate an industry.
That is not to say any of the small independents dont make a good sounding product.
Again points of discussion.
Mofojo coating a cone is not the same thing as building a complete driver nor tweeking a design no matter how many years it took.
We had a client trade in a set of Vsm for a set of Vivids there was no comparison we dont mean to disrespect his memory but the facts are the facts. |
Ron we are not going to sell this gentleman anything but see our points as listed before we agree with you that they are good speakers, however, the sound of a ribbon tweeter with a Bryston amp in a live room might be a bit bright.
Subwoofer issues:
1: Not everyone wants two large subwoofer in the room
2: They can be tricky to integrate sonically
3: They may not look integrated visually with the main speakers
4: They may be difficult to wire with the main gear
Other issues:
1: 600 watt amplifier which may damage a 250 watt maximum power handling loudspeaker
2: 90 db efficient loudspeakers are not that efficient for such a large room even though he has lots of power, the voice coils may heat up excessively when trying to dissipate heat if the gentleman wants to turn it up or plays for a long time at a spirited volume,
Therefore, the greater the efficiency the less input power hence lower heat dissipation required for the same volume.
Happy searching
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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Ron the Proac is most likely an excellent speaker but will be woefully inadequate for this size room.
In fact we think they make excellent loudspeakers, sound wise they are very good and they have wonderful cabinetry however for such a large room these are really not the right loudspeakers because:
Point one: the power handling is only 250 watts, the OP's amp is 600 watts
Point two: although the bass spec is 20hz no db down point means that realistic bass response is 24-28hz which is not really enough low bass for this size room,.
Point three: the speakers are 90db efficient which means greater heat on the voice coil compared to a much greater efficiency loudspeaker.
All of the above points mean that the speakers won't work well in that huge volume of air.
Ron if the room was smaller they would be an excellent choice.
Again what we have found for a big room this is what you need:
1: High efficiency 95 db 1w 1M or greater
2: High power handling 500-1000 watts
3: High SPL output
4: Rugged Drivers especially large bass drivers to handle the excursion required, this means larger 12-15 inch woofers with big voice coils
Tekton will do it Legacy will do it. Possibly the Salk Exotica 3 with self amplifiers woofers might do it.
Food for thought
One last point the OP likes the sound of the Golden Ears the Legacy sound is like a better version of the Golden Ears. Both speakers use Heil tweeters both have prodigious low end, both speakers are efficient with the Legacy's handling more power.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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Millipi we don’t have to the specs for the job are wrong.
This is not our first Rodeo remember the fact that we design Movie Theaters, as well as professional design experience for over 30 years, and the specs for loudspeakers, amplifiers, and room size are all part of the design methodology required for Home Theater.
Many Home Theaters are modeled on paper long before the room is built, acoustical panels go in and the calibration is done.
We have covered the points all before of why the Proac loudspeaker is not the right model for this very large room’s volume, in all of our posts, and by the way we could also supply a set of Proacs to this gentleman as we work with Proac’s US importer.
One glaring obvious point is the Bryston’s 600 watt power output with a speaker whose maximum power handling is 250 watts.
One large peak with the volume turned up a bit, and boom fried woofers.
As we have stated before the chance of us selling the OP is low, he may be half way across the country.
As per the Proacs they are excellent loudspeakers, they are well made, use supeb drivers and do many things really well, Proac is not known howerver, for their ability to play loud and fill up giant rooms.
It is totally possible that the Proac D48 might sound as good or even better than the Leagacy Focus we were recommening however Bill Dudleston designs speakers that can be used as a PA, there was a set of Focus used at one show actually as a PA loudspeaker.
Bill lDuddleston the lead designer of Legacy, ikes displacement, big woofers, 12-15 inch bass drivers, his speakers play loud, handle lots of power, and are electrically efficient, also many models have built in amplifier or passive woofers, add in a sweet sounding Heil tweeter and the option of electronic room control it adds up why we recommend these speakers for this application, they also remind us of the Golden Ear Trition References which we sell and this gentleman also likes.
Do we personally feel that the Legacy are the world's best speakers, that is a much harder question, personally if I won the lottery, a pair of Focal Grande Utopia EVO III or a set of the 400k Kharma references with the four Acuton Diamond midranges would be in the Living Room way faster than almost any loudspeaker.
Our recommendation are sound and any loudspeaker that fits the criteria we have listed several times in this thread would work.
We also mentioned D2 Girls JBLs would work well, a large set of Avante Gardes, a set of big Klipsch horns, a giant set of Willsons, Maxxs, a giant set of Focals would also be canidates.
Unless the OP has a preamp that can effectively roll off the bass frequencies to the main louspeakers and then integrate a set of subwoofers any similar loudspeaker with limited efficiency, smaller woofers, that can not handle gobs of power is not going to work.
We have repaired many loudspeakers that were damaged in this kind of enviornment, you must remember that a very large room has totally different requirements than a room that is 20 by 20 or 20 by 30, and the size of the ceiling makes a huge difference in room volume.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor
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Sandy wouldn’t do it, to deal with a long discontinued loudspeaker with proprietary parts without the possiblity of having spares no matter how cheap they are is a dangerous gamble.
Not to mention that if you ever want to sell them finding a buyer again might not be so easy, then consider the limited efficiency, lack of deep bass, and limited power handling especially for this man’s large volume room, not going to be good.
Rbach this is why we post, because so many people don’t get that system matching is coupling the loudspeaker to the room and matching the loudspeaker to the the matching gear, sonic qualities, power handling, etc.
You think its all about making sales, as we stated the likley hood of selling this gentleman a set of speakers is low, however, we are hoping that the OP will make a good decision and get a great set of louspeakers that will work for his room, electronics and musical tastes.
Ron not everyone wants two large subwoofers and the price of the Proacs + 2 jl Audio Sub, and the JL Crossover will far exceed his budget, also we did agree with you on this point, howerver, the point about having 600 watts and not blowing a speaker we would not agree with, the livelyhood of playing loud hitting a peak and killing woofers even using a crossover may not protect the speakers as per a large room and the Bryston's that we would diagree with you on that one, everyone's idea of a large room is different and the other part of this equation is, total contigious volume if this large room is open to any other rooms, than the room goes from very large to titanic
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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Dtrandall, you are missing the point we believe in what you believe and we have the OP’s best interests at heart.
The issue is that the OP doesn’t have a standard sized audio room, he has a big volume of air to fill and that requires different thinking.
Your Cigar store analogy is a good one, but here the customer is saying I need a cigar I can smoke for 20 mins and the client is looking at a giant cigar which will burn for 1 hour, unless the customer wants to smoke for 20 mins and then smoke the rest later, which won’t taste very good, the large cigar isn’t the right selection.
The shop owner can do 1 of 2 things, either recommend a smaller equally tasty cigar or allow the customer to purchase the larger cigar and learn the hard way that what he wanted ultimately wasn’t the best choice for his requirements.
Mr. Randall, you totally miss the point, the reason why we post on threads like this is to assist people with the knowledge obtained over many years of doing this work as a profession.
As stated the likelyhood that the OP is even on the same part of the US or the World is rather remote, so we really don’t have anything financial to gain from this it is not a matter of "what is best for us" vs what is best for the OP."
We have seen too many people with blown speakers because the salesguy wanted to make a sale and didn’t look at what was right for the customer or the customer came to us and had us repair his speakers because he blew them out and the speakers were not purchased from us.
We have repaired Genesis 2.2 speakers and tweeters in a pair of Rockport Arrakis because the client liked to play very loud and had massive power and the issue with the Genesis is that the BG ribbon is now longer being made he has one spare and if he blows that one he has a giant set of boat anchors.
The OP has a unique set of circumstances and for that reason, it is unlikely that he can and will be able to just go to a store or even a show and hear a set of speakers that will meet all of those criteria.
If the OP had a room 1/3 or 1/2 the size it would be an easy task to hear many different products that would sound great.
Mr. Randall you really don’t understand what we are about at all.
With clarification from the OP as to wether subwoofers are a viable choice it is hard to go further here are the full questions:
Speaker Selection:
1: Does a set of large subwoofer work for you visually?
2: Can you get them to integrate do you have any experience or trepidation going with separate subwoofers?
3: Can you preamp handle subs?
4: Do you care that the subwoofers may not look the same as the main speakers?
5: Would you prefer a single large main speakers?
6: Do you have any constraints with the look of the main speakers?
7: Tonal palete does the OP prefer a warmer or clear sounding speaker?
Room:
1: We know the dimensions is the room sealed or open to any other rooms?
2: Is the room very live?
3: Is there an area rug or wall to wall carpeting?
4: Does the room have a lot of slap echo?
5: If the room does have a lot of slap echo is he open to adding some room panels?
Usage:
1: What kinds of music will be played?
2: How loud?
3: How long would the system be played?
4: Does he ever want to have a party and have the system play to fill up the space?
Speaker Buying:
1: Is new or used desirable?
2: Would an appropriate older or used model be an issue?
3: How oes the OP want to get service and support?
4: Would he travel to audition?
5: If a speaker is big and heavy does he have someone to assist him with the setup of the speakers?
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor
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Thank you for your observatiions GSM, if you note, they mirror our suggestions and observations.
We recommended a compact floor stander with prodigious bass and high efficiency and high power handling, with the opption of room correction which was what we were recommending, not that these were the only speakers nor that these are the "best" loudspeakers in the world it was just that their designer likes to build speakers that will fill large rooms and play loud without fear of blowing up.
It was for this very reason we brought in the iine in the first place.
We also gave examples of a few other systems that might work as well that were from other companies.
We have found even if you are somewhat close to a speaker in a large room it helps but doesnt take away the feeling that the sound is not filling the room.
We mentioned that at both the Cap and Axpona shows the huge systems by Vac and Von Schweikert were in a titantically large room probably 80 feet wide and 40 foot deep, big high ceiling and even those mammouth loudspeakrs failed to sound really big enough to sound convincing in that space, if the room was half the size, the sound would have been extraordinary.
In a big room you have a multitude of problems, which do not occur in a much smaller room.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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Twoleftears,
It is not a "bias" to know what works in such a space, that is called experience.
When you build movie theaters some fo the same issues come to bear, such as filling of a room, durability of the speakers, power handling, dispersion qualities etc.
You can put a pair of Kef LS 50 in a giant room with a compact subwoofer and it will make sound, it is not pressurizing the room and creating a sense of presence.
We have never talked to GSM before but funny how he mirrors our comments almost word for word, he has experienced first hand that what works in a store, doesn't sound the same in a very large room.
Too many of you guys think we have an alterior motive, on some postings sure we do want to get people to check out certain products that we have found to be excellent that many people are not aware of like the Micromega M100/M150 and others.
However, nobody has purchased a single Micromega piece from us and time to time we will post pairings that sound really excellent that we have found.
We also give advice and opinions on other threads that are instructional in nature only.
Most people here need to lighten up.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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Twoleftears, recommending products we don’t sell isn’t in our vested interests now is it?
If we were just in it as you put it in it for our vested interests we wouldn’t have commented that Tekton, Salk Exotica 3 with the amplified bass, or a set of Jbls’s would also work now would we?
Many people on this site need to grow up. |
