I owned a pair of A7s from the early 70s until the mid 80s generally doing bi-amped live sound duty, and when used as stereo speakers from time to time they were astonishingly good. Not "flat" by definition but they had a charming, perhaps faux, "wooden" tone that was cool…this was before phase plugs and other refinements (although I replaced blown horn diaphragms here and there and added serious JBL 15" bass speakers to them) so it's a wonder they worked at all, but man, you could make people smile playing dynamic orchestral stuff through them, which I did occasionally by driving them with my home stereo rig…cool speakers. |
Did the classic Altec A7 811 horns from 1970 have phase plugs? I thought the "Tangerine" thing was later but I'm now not sure.. |
I'm with mapman…I've mostly ignored Klipsch for decades, although in the 80s there was a KG4 or something that sounded pretty nice to me (I went with Boston A60IIs…I have a re-coned pair in my TV rig). I recently trekked over to a NH dealer to listen to a pair of Heresy IIIs and was also surprised with those things, although for many that's simply heresy. Might have to get a pair of those. |
Regarding horn use and abuse, I use a pair of Mackie 10" 2 way P.A. passive (passive aggressive) speakers (with a beefy Mackie sub since they’re good to maybe 60hz) daily for my mindless but important electric guitar noodling in my mindless noodling studio setup. Note that the these little gems are the original version that cost around 300 bucks a pair new and seem to be made from some sort of plastic cement (heavier than the latest "neo" magnet woofer version which I imagine also sound real good). Interestingly, if you put recorded music through these (as opposed to my noodling tracks) it sounds sort of great. Heresy again. Plus, I’m not sure I spelled "noodling" correctly but it looks right. |
Does the "cold hard evidence of measurement" actually have anything to do with personal taste in musical tone? Measurements and personal comprehension anomalies aren't completely mutually exclusive, but aren't matching either. If horn loaded speakers are made well, the phase plugs and throat shape, etc., will provide efficiency and projection and that's about it as far as generalizations go since they're not otherwise the same thing (different designs simply sound different)…many modern speakers have moderate "horn loading" recessions around tweeters to make them more efficient, and although generally aren't considered horns per se, certainly do the same thing. Once them pesky high frequencies get released who knows where they go? As long as they get to my earballs somehow I'm fine. |
Just got a pair of Heresy III "Capitol Special Edition" speakers…unboxed last night actually (late…traveling and they'd been left on my porch…thanks USPS Sunday delivery!..man…). I any case, I'd ordered the regular black ones but they (Ebay "open box" utter score…seriously) sent the "Special Edition" ebony version instead which is good since I'm clearly special. They're not broken in yet I assume, and I'm using them with my 12 watt per side SEP amp. There must be something wrong with me (yeah, I know…what EVER) as I think they're sort of great sounding. Imaging is astonishing, no horn "beaming" particularly (all speakers unless specifically omni designs have some directionality…they just do), coherant (unlike myself), efficient as advertised, and they fit my current beatnik life style (although I can't get facial hair going to any degree my wife will accept, I listen to jazz almost exclusively, own a Triumph Bonneville, smoke pot, and wear black a lot). If there's anything wrong with these Heresys I haven't noticed it yet, they meld well with my 2 REL subs, don't have the feared "midrange hump" I've read about, and seem like they'll do fine until I get those cool-man Classic Audio things Atmasphere talks about. Somehow I think the way speakers sound when music is played through them is important, but others may feel differently…heh heh…highly recommended to anybody who is exactly like me. |
So Mapman…if you or If anybody is looking for a pair of these damn things (Heresy IIIs) I don’t mind sharing the fact that I got them from Ebay as a pair from a supposed "authorized" dealer (the 5 year Klipsch warranty is supported they say). I was not in a hurry to get these, but the free shipping also nudged me, and they’re the least expensive "open box" pair listed so you should be ably to find ’em if you wish. That seller also gives you until late January to return them with no lame re-stocking fee, you just pay for the shipping. They arrived in 4 days (!) from Nevada (Somehow Amazon was involved which meant USPS delivered them on a Sunday! A day earlier than tracking indicated…surprise!) to my house outside Boston, and were "cryoed" as they sat on my porch for a night as I was returning from a trip…I let them thaw before opening. Not sure if the Capitol Edition thing was simply luck (normally they list for 500 bucks more than the "normal" version, something I would not pay for since they're' exactly the same components as regular Heresys), or if they just have a pile of those. The grills seem patterned after a sweater I used to have, and the finish is a weird "Ebony" that looks like dark purple…sort of…but I like 'em. |
Nonoise….I tested these with a tone from my trusty old Stereophile test CD and they do go lower than the ratings state (there's some signal to the 40s certainly), and mine aren't near corners as I have my subs (off during the test of course). Note that since horns are projecting mids and highs to your face it renders "first reflections" less of an issue, and the 12" is sealed so it really pops…I listened to these in a shop and they were in corners and do well ("I have no corners, I can turn on a dime" paraphrasing Lowell…sorry). I took one of these apart today and they're well made with seemingly nice wire that looks like thick single strand Monster cable from 1982. Cool. |
The Devil has horns…as do cows. And my cars and motorcycles. I actually swapped out a buzzy little horn thing on my 2012 Bonneville for a horn loaded horn. Way louder. Doesn’t that mean anything? Discuss. |
"Everything you know is wrong," Firesign Theater.
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The sound of any speaker, including omni directional drivers, is always better "on axis" because the stereo image is right, all conventional drivers beam some anyway, and phase plugs and proper modern horn design is about dispersion to prevent extreme beaming. Any speaker manufacturer that says their speakers sound great anywhere in the sound field is hyping their stuff, because it just ain't so since the closest speaker is always louder (see "Garcia's Second Law of Nearness," Merkle Press $4.50 plus shipping.). The "little" horns in the Heresy IIIs seem to disperse as well as the conventional tweeter speakers I have around. In fact, a little test of "realistic" (by my standards anyway) sound is how a speaker sounds from nearby…not in the direct field like when I’m in the adjoining part of the sort of "great room" where my gear is (making another martini or curled up in a fetal position weeping quietly), and the Heresy’s sound like, "hey, there are musicians over there doing something." Also note that some designs feature the fact that they "beam" higher frequency tone at the "sweet spot" listener as a way to limit wall reflections. Who cares what the speakers sound like from the side anyway? The dent on the couch from my butt where the system sounds best is there for a reason. |
After a couple of weeks with my Klipsch Heresy IIIs, I can say without a doubt that they are great speakers. Partnered with well designed other crap (specifically wires, gizmos, doodads, tweaks, etc.), they sing, and I think the woofer is loosening up (Emincence drivers in my experience, mostly with bass speakers, take a bit to get their mojo…I have an Ampeg cab with a retro 15 that needed prodding)…I put them on 1.5" or so butcher blocks with my Vibrapods (previously used with my Silverline Preludes), and listen to them using my ears. |
Eminence…spelling error. I'm bi-wiring the Heresys for no reason in particular except that I had the wire already there from other speakers, and I'm thinking about stands to get them up to my ear level although that might not be worth it…they're sort of cool on the floor…fun…they're fun... |
Yeah…I don't know why but the way things sound remains a big part of my listening experience. |
I bought my Heresys for their efficiency (used with my mighty 12 watt SEP) after a brief audition to see if I could stand the tone of these things…they seemed to sound nice enough in the showroom of the audio joint and although I use horn loaded PA speakers for shows (and own a small pair of 10" 2 way passive Mackies for my own amusement and monitor duties at shows if necessary), I haven’t owned horns for my home listening rig (my old Altec A7s were used for band gigs except for rare use as a stereo pair, or for background music between sets…loved those things)…The Heresys don’t necessarily "sound like horns"…they simply have a coherant and accurate clear tone that is non fatiguing and musical, and the efficiency is simply gravy…I have had to mess with the levels of my subs since the amp sends less signal to them relative to the mains, and the frequency "roll in" settings are different…but otherwise utterly enjoyable all around. |
I’m not sure if my recently acquired Klipsch Heresy III speakers have a dispersion plot published anywhere (they likely do), but whatever sort of phase plugs they’re using in the horns works very well at dispersing frequencies hither and yon…especially yon. I have decades of experience using horn loaded PA stuff (actually am mixing a jazz show tomorrow…you’re all invited!) although the Heresys are my only recent horny (horn-ish?) home audio items (not counting my old A7s), and if anybody is interested, look up the dispersion plots for Mackie or other modern horns and you can see they often are very dispersy. I can only assume Kosst is part of a plot directly dispersing anti dispersion misdirection. |
Reminds me of the Rolling Stone review of a great Neil Young album years ago (I think it was "After the Gold Rush")…they utterly panned it but later it was recognized as brilliant and sold a zillion copies. Somebody wrote in and thanked the reviewer for saving him from wasting any more than the many hours he'd already spent enjoying the album. So yeah, sorry but those La Scalas gotta go man…they're an insult to all things Linkwitz. |
Whatever Klipsch was thinking about when designing the current version of the Heresys, they got it right. I'm sensitive to coherence in speaker systems as that's the most important quality for my tastes, and these speakers are absolutely coherent, as well as having great dispersion qualities…better phase plugs? Better horn throat design? Better care in manufacturing as Hope, Arkansas wants to spread happiness everywhere? I've said before that the way speakers actually sound is important to me (!), and I'm picky about this stuff. |
Otherwise, I think Linkwitz is pretty cool if only based on an interview I saw someplace…Youtube maybe. His speaker designs with the tube loading are interesting. |
I do think the Heresy IIIs aren’t so great for near field listening, but then I also think anybody but an idiot knows that (I recommend smallish KEFs with concentric tweeters for near field as they’re cheap and sound better than most "pro" monitors). I’m maybe 9 or 10 feet from them with some toe-in…perfect! Ya gotta get yer toe in. Although I am going to try a couple of stands that raises them up a foot or so to get the bass driver off the floors and the tweeter at ear level…they’re now up a couple of inches as I have them on butcher blocks with Vibrapods under the speakers, and using the upward angling bases…having them on the floor of course reinforces bass, but I use 2 REL subs so bass is covered…the Heresys go to maybe 58HZ before dropping off considerably so subs are necessary for my tonal needs. Note that I feel these things don’t beam much at all anyway, and I’ve used sophisticated speakers with dome tweeters that seemed to beam more than these do…so there, horn deniers! |
By "near field" I mean something like the monitors I use for recording that are right there above the desk a few feet away…but otherwise, 6' does seem like it would work with Heresy speakers from any era and man, the immersion thing just sounds cool. I also like the 12" speaker in these things and wondered what its impedance is as I could stick a guitar speaker in there for fun…a pair of old JBL K120s would look bad ass, but I assume the Heresy III woofer was designed for that speaker specifically (I was told it's by Eminence, who make a zillion different drivers including a supposedly 400 watt 15" I have in a bass amp). |
The Heresy IIIs do need, for my tastes anyway, a good sub to make a full range system. I use 2 RELs I already owned when I bought the Heresy IIIs, and they took some time to adjust as they were getting significantly less signal from the amp as the Heresy doesn't need more than a watt or 2 to get going. I'm in the "all speakers should work with all music camp" as music specific speaker design would be ridiculous (except for ultimate level limits) because classical, heavy metal, and those middle eastern monk yawning albums all need the same mojo coming to your earballs. I mix live shows and use the same speakers for the Baltimore Consort or Julian Lage. Heresy IIIs are coherant, exacting music reproducers, I'm never thinking while listening to them that they're horns, they can expose flaws in your rig or a recording if there are any, and they have surprised me with their tonal accuracy. I think everybody should drop what they're doing a buy a pair immediately. Get a pair, as they say. |
Oswalds Mill Audio seems pretty cool, but no pricing. In any case, thanks for the reference. |
I refuse to mention my gigs here to protect my privacy, as I can't be hassled by audio geeks when I work my magic. SECURITY! |
Non sound reinforced (i.e. simply acoustic) shows are far different from otherwise, and an acoustic quartet certainly does have "startling dynamics" to the musicians playing the instruments, and maybe anybody within 10 feet of them...but that's about it. In my sideline as a working soundman I've mixed hundreds of acoustic shows that DO have a clean system to run through...from the Baltimore Consort to John Renbourn to various jazz artists, and I love actually hearing those otherwise lost dynamics...through horn loaded systems of course (or phased arrays which also work). From a single large diaphragm condenser mic (classicial trios and bluegrass ensembles mostly), to multi miked whatever, the passion and dynamics of well played music is better when people can hear it, and well made generally horn loaded speakers make that possible. |
Who has room for La Scalas? (Rhetorical question for which I prefer there not be answers proffered...thanks) However, they do seem to be a bargain at 4 grand, and based on my recent success (a pleasant surprise) with Heresy IIIs I can only imagine (which will have to do as none of the nearby Audio Salons have them for audition) they sound splendid indeed. But how far away from them do you need to be? Near the butler pantry? Do you have to move the vintage globe collection? The Milton busts? (plural) Heresy IIIs need subs (I have 2) but otherwise there's yer Klipschy Taste of Tasty Horn fun right there for relatively small funds, and mine are 9 feet from my fat head. |
Except music with a 5 string bass at 31hz for the low B, percussion overtones, pianos, the ambient sound around live orchestras, life...etc.... |
I completely agree that speakers like the Heresy IIIs I have been enjoying are perhaps the most coherent I've heard to their 58hz or so limits (there is bass below that point of course, but not in the same tonal or dynamic ballpark)...very clean, accurate, and impactful bass in that range, utterly enhanced by 2 carefully adjusted subs. I just looked up the aforementioned Charney speakers and man...beautiful craftsmanship and nice ideas...Maybe I'll hear 'em at a show sometime. |
