High End System Building. How important is the matching, cabling and room? Thoughts ?

@mahgister you are talking to someone who works in audio where I used to be just an hobbyist. I know the work, build quality, research and design elements that go into products and why at this point. It should not surprise you that based on that that I would disagree with you about how much the room affects the sound.  It affects it some but it’s not gonna make average equipment compete with the best of the best. Sorry that’s as direct as I can be. 

@mahgister i am. Not doing anything behind your back at all. Look I respect your opinion. I just strongly disagree with it. I understand how you strongly feel. I’m not mad at you and I’m not offended by you disagreeing with me. I strongly disagree with your position but please don’t take it personal. I respect how professionally you have responded. But I disagree with you. Don’t think I hate you as a person or that I’m sneak dissing you behind your back. It’s Audiogon you will see what I post. Look we have debated this topic on and on. You have wrote long answers and explained your position. Yes the room can help you some. But not as much as you probably think in my eyes. I respect your ideas and arguments in your position. But I’m not talking behind your back. It’s Audiogon. You will see my response like you are seeing it now. Just don’t take it that personal. You are a smart thoughtful guy. Continue to engage on this thread or any others. But the more you respond the stronger I feel about my own position. Based on those responses. It’s ok to disagree and still be ok with each other. Always feel free to respond on my threads.

@curiousjim i can’t do any of that in my room.   I literally can’t change it because of the area and dimensions and the style of our condo.  So that everyone understands I am extremely happy with the current state of my audio system. I have infigo method 4 Dac. Infigo method 6 amplifier. Infigo Fluvius streamer. Gato Fm6 speakers and 2 rel 212se subwoofers. My infigo stuff has a zero noise floor up to -140 db.  It has great sound stage. I have cables that don’t have any noise as well. I get great transparency, detail, soundstage with a small hint of warmth and musicality. My system really gets in the air without sounding fatiguing at all.  Look my gear is expensive I can admit that but I bought it after loads of research and it has synergy off the charts. The design that went into every party of the system is next level to my ear. So I am literally getting great sound in my bad room.  I have high ceilings, a door that gets in the way. One speaker close to a wall. I have hardwood floors. Etc. But despite that the level of electronics I have overcame all of that. Look I can’t speak for everyone in my system it works. 

Source, amplification, Synergy, Build quality, Room.  Crap equipment with bad synergy in a great room does not equal great sound. 

@lemonhaze look challenging my integrity openly saying that it somehow factors into my opinion is comical. But anyway I do this as part of the hobby. I don’t mention my infigo stuff unless it’s applicable to the conversation. Has nothing to do with my opinion.  Do I think well designed gear with great parts and technology sound better yes. But only if it has the proper synergy and it’s built on sound technology.  Yes. I’m at a point where I’m experienced and I tend to gravitate to the more costly gear. Not because of price but because of performance and the tech and build quality that comes along with it. 

@bpoletti 
 I literally just said I have great sound in my room.  Kind of misleading to tell people they can’t have good sound in a bad room. Some of us can’t do a thing room wise. But still manage 

@lemonhaze you can still have a great sound without spending the money I have spent on my system.  If you maximize synergy and you have a great room you can have a great sound depending on how well the things you do buy work together and yes if you have a great room you can really do some good things sound wise. 

@immatthewj i meant a small bit of tube style warmth. I didn’t mean a hint of musicality.  Its sounds musical. Instruments sound like instruments. Players are where they are supposed to be in soundstage. Just to clarify. 

@erik_squires but some can’t do anything about the room. You can still have great sound to me. You have to get equipment matching and cabling to help you in my opinion.  But if you can fix the room. That helps a lot. 

@jastralfu my listening room isn’t optimal so I have done a lot of work with everything else to get a great sound that I like. I can’t do much about my room.  

@jastralfu he just likes to come on anything I post with negativity. That’s just who he is unfortunately 

@mihorn  @jastralfu i have a difficult room. High ceilings. My speakers can only be so far apart. I have a window to the left. I have a door the prevents my speakers from being wider. The whole reason I made this post. A lot of us don’t have optimal rooms.

@jastralfu im going to have a former rel rep to come out and set the subs up in a month.  Im currently demoing an amp and dac the pulium and the esoteric N01 xd while the dealer tries out my Infigo stuff.  When I get it back next month.  Gonna have ten former Rel guy set up the 212se properly. 

@mihorn i will have my set up guy come when I get my regular system back. He was really good at set up. Even in difficult rooms. He used to travel the country doing it for rel,customers. 

@mihorn. The system you have should also,have the sound signature you want as well. Equipment with a warmer sound signature ain’t gonna work for me regardless of set up. I like a small amount of warmth and a bit more detail. Some equipment just can’t give you the detail and low noise floor you make seek. Yes some expensive equipment isn’t worth it but really properly matched good equipment in a non optimal room can still give you the sound you seek. You put in the work matching stuff properly for your room and you will reap the benefits. All of it matters. I have a really great source and an amp that throws a great soundstage and has a low noise floor. The instruments have air and space. Then I have cables that are not a bottle neck and allows the music to flow uninterrupted and doesn’t change the sound signature. I have been able to achieve the sound in my room even though the room is sub optimal. 

@mihorn some people will tell you. You can’t get optimal sound because your room is bad. Speaker placement along with matching equipment cabling etc can get you where you need to be. Each of our rooms and set ups are different. Do what works for you. 

@mihorn nice sound I can hear it some through your clip. I love the system I have. I listen to a lot of instrumental jazz with a lot of dynamics. My system has to have air and space. Listening preferences play a part as well. 

@mihorn im good once I get it dialed in a little I’m ready to roll. I’m pretty happy all I got to do is position my speakers have my guy integrate the subs when I get my regular gear back and I’m happy. Very happy. Enjoy your system. Looks cozy 

@deep_333 man I have seen your comments on most of my posts. Typically they include personal shots. I don’t do that to you. We are having real,conversations on this. If you wanna contribute I have no issue. Your posts after the initial comments were great. Let’s keep it professional is all I’m saying. Happy listening 

Everyone system building is work. We all have different budgets , preferences, rooms. Some like cables some don’t believe in them. Some listen to voices where 80% of my listening is jazz instrumentals.  Hard bop.  Some are tube guys. Some like solid state.  I like super low noise floors. Some equipment can’t achieve that. I like air and space with wide soundstages. I have figured out my system in my room. Getting the right cabling to make the music flow. My equipment has zero noise and the notes come from a complete silent background. There is air and space between the notes. I will be taking my entire system to the Lone Star Audiofest in Dallas Texas in June. First week. If you are in the area stop by and check it out out. Infigo will also be at the Dallas Audio Show. March 15-17 in Dallas, Texas. The newest industry show. We will be showing with Reference Stenhiems in one of the Ball rooms. It will be fun. 

@jacobsdad2000 now you are talking.  Some people think I’m dissing lesser equipment and that I’m dissing the importance of the room.  I have slowly climbed up the chain through the years.  I have seen cheaper systems with proper cabling and tweaks  that are matched correctly mollywop more expensive systems. Synergy is really where it all starts. But I have found that when you do have properly matched high end systems with proper cabling in the right room  that also have synergy it is truly sublime. Nothing against anyone’s set up but that’s my personal experience.  I have had access to a lot of great gear and I have learned how to get  really good performance out of said gear. 

@mahgister as far as cabling is concerned. Pure silver works in your system. I have a ring radiator tweeter in my speaker. Pure silver using that tweeter in my experience doesn’t work well. Every little thing matters. In a folding tweeter silver works better. In a soft dome tweeter. Silver is even better. My tweeter reacts better with the best copper you can get your hands on. I have really studied my equipment and speaker choice to truly understand what my personal tastes for my signature sound for my music and system.one thing I have learned is that there are a lot of guys that think they are the smartest in the bunch.  They equate expensive cables as snake oil etc.  I literally allow people to try before they buy in most cases because I want them to be happy. We have had folks with cables way more expensive than ours demo them. Keep them and sell the other ones. I allow demos because as an audiophile I hate when I bought cable that didn’t work or a component that didn’t work and I was stuck with it. I do that based on my consumer experiences.  Anyone that wants to try them can hit me up. No pressure. But for someone who doesn’t know me talking.a bunch of babble calling the rest of us idiots because we believe in cabling and certain gear can say whatever they want but in my opinion can kick rocks. 

@jastralfu this is exactly what I’m talking about I own a condo. Can’t change the room.  My system can never be dead center. My speakers are 7-8 feet apart max. Vaulted ceilings. Hardwood floor window to the left. I put a nice carpet down to limit some things. I don’t use silver cabling cause it tends to be pingy with my tweeter. When I use really good copper cabling the ring radiator tweeter decay is airy like vapor and the decay is perfect.  We all have our systems. We know what works. Do I have an expensive system and cabling yes.  But once I got my speakers I got to demo everything else before I purchased it. I literally have a super dac that held its own vs. dcs, Weiss, wadax, msb, lampizator etc. my amp is a cool running class A infigo amp. My speakers are gato the guy was a lead designer for the more expensive gamut speakers.  I literally was the ear for our cabling after all my years of trying multiple brands over and over. We all have different journeys , rooms, budgets and beliefs. I will not judge your system or your journey.  To each his own just enjoy the music. I’m just not gonna think that I’m so smart and that everybody is suckers because they choose to spend their money on whatever they believe in. Most of us are pretty successful in whatever we did in life and we didn’t get here by being gullible or dumb.  Even OZ didn’t have all the answers. But somehow a random guy on the internet has the key to audio life. lol 😂 

@jastralfu I I have a crap room but I have great sound that fits my tastes.  Try to demo in home if you move from a component or even a cable.  That’s my advice. I been blessed to have long demos of high end stuff along my journey. Some dealers are good at letting you try stuff.  That’s why I let people try stuff. Hell I want them happy and enjoying their music. 

@jjss49 sometimes you get the right speaker that fits the crap room. Lol 😂 if you can demo before you buy. That’s the best way.  But there are ways to get there without the perfect room 

@mahgister your posts are well thought out and reasonable 

@mahgister my only point to you on any of this is the use of silver with my tweeter.  The rest is referring to that other guy who is always rude on my posts.  

@maghister you are right the sound has to go to the listener.  Speaker positioning is important. Placement if done right in a tough room means everything. 

@maghister I wasn’t talking about you my friend you have real discussions on how you feel about your ideas.  You are always respectful.  You do make a lot of valid points. 

@mahgister you never called anyone idiots and I appreciate your discussion on my thread. I wasn’t talking about you.  You always have been respectful on all my posts. Thanks. You make great points. is this

@jayctoy i now work for Infigo Audio. It has allowed me to get some really great gear that had been out of my reach. I’m enjoying my method 4 dac and method 6 stereo amplifier. My cables were made for these electronics so my system synergy is off the charts. I’m very happy with what I have. Gonna enjoy it for a long time to come. I tested all of it before I purchased in a long demo so I’m in a good space system wise.

@jayctoy i spent a number of years in this hobby. I didn’t always have money to afford the higher end stuff. I learned through long demos that I would get when I did collections for a cable company. He had access to some great gear and allowed me to learn and borrow from long demos.  I learned to listen for certain things and learned from some great people in this hobby.  I had a lot of old school guys around me. Also taught me tweaks etc.  I helped with the development of the Infigo cables. I’m blessed in this hobby. I have a great system. Expensive but it’s matched properly synergy wise and fits my listening environment 

@bigkidz +1 I agree. There are certain things that the electronics have to do that the room will not fix.  Some equipment just ain’t gonna get it done for some of us no matter what room it’s in. If it’s not properly matched it ain’t gonna work either. Regardless of the room 

@bigkidz @jayctoy the whole reason we give people free demos is so they can try stuff and hear it for themselves with no obligation to purchase. You get to decide does it work for you in your system. Coming from just a regular audiophile to a dealer I felt like people should try it in their systems. That way you not in the blind as an audiophile I hated that.  You get a 15 day demo to decide for yourself. That’s why when people make certain statements I ignore them because most won’t let you try before you buy I do cable wise. 

@bigkidz +1 I agree. There are certain things that the electronics have to do that the room will not fix.  Some equipment just ain’t gonna get it done for some of us no matter what room it’s in. If it’s not properly matched it ain’t gonna work either. Regardless of the room 

@immatthewj i understand how you feel. I too have the components and synergy to overcome my room and I’m happy. Yes having a good acoustic room is great but that will never happen for some of us. So the better components and synergy the better the sound I get. 

Honestly folks. Some of us can’t do a thing about our rooms. But we can work on the other areas. Better components , synergy , cabling. Picking the right speakers  and speaker designs for the room you have. Some can change their rooms. But many can’t. But we can still have great sounding systems in the rooms we do have. 

@grannyring this is why we have conversations like this. I know everyone can’t spend the money that I and some others have spent in their systems. But a lot of us have also educated ourselves along the way before we buy the expensive stuff. We enjoy relationships sometimes that allow us to hear before we buy. I have done that. My system is sublime to my ear in a room that is all over the place with flaws. But ny system has a great synergy. My dac, amplifier and cabling are from the same company it was built to work together. The dac is world class. It is musical but has 0 noise floor. It has a spacious soundstage with loads of air and detail and a slight warmth to its sound. It has great transparency and the musicians are layered properly. Music sounds live in a sense. The amp the same way with my dac. My speakers have a great build quality and technology in them that allow them to go get the notes. Some people diss the high end but when it is done right there are some things that some of the good companies do that in a ok room it sounds good but in a perfect room it would be sublime. Can you get a great sound at lower price points. Yes! But when you have the resources and you purchase reliable high end with good technology backing it. It is truly special. There is a lot of work and technology that reputable high end companies implement that is next level. All this can be done even when the room is bad. Now can you fix your room to maximize your sound absolutely. But if you don’t have good components in a great room it ain’t gonna do what some of these systems that are matched properly in the higher end can do. For example when a guy named Dave Baskin was alive he had a home theater cottage built for sound in the back of his property. He had it soundproof and had the high end company come in and place their components perfectly and actually used speaker setup technology. His system also had great synergy. It sounded so good I was in the audio matrix. The dude literally had to put me out I didn’t wanna leave. He had it all. Components, synergy, Great room acoustics and high technology and high end gear put together right. Socks were blown off! That sound is stuck in my head to this day and that was about 11 years ago. I truly learned what the audio matrix and nirvana was that day. He had to put me out like Dino on the Flinstones. Those are the experiences that I have had. Those are the things that I experienced . Some of the guys on this thread think that the buyers in the high end or gullible dimwits . That is a ridiculous assumption. Most of these guys in the high end are very successful in their careers. I am. I don’t sell audio as my main source of income. I run a firm. With that being said painting audio dealers as snake oil salesman and saying that the buyers are idiots for paying the prices is an arrogant I’m smarter than yall assumption that on its face is asinine. Guys that purchase high end equipment are independent business owners or have had great careers at whatever they do. They got there because they probably research the hell out of stuff before they buy it. Like I do. I’m sorry some of the guys that make comments on my thread. You can hear the disdain for the high end in their voices as they type their words. lol. But it is what it is. If you choose not to buy stuff that’s expensive fine. But it’s arrogant within itself to say that some of us that do just don’t know any better!

There are many ways to get where you want to be! Find your way but don’t criticize mines. 

@grannyring the story of how Hans Looman the owner of our company he and I met before at a show and the system he brought before he started his company was from manufacturers I knew that had worked together before. So when it didn’t sound right I was like I heard that system before. I knew it had synergy. I had a bag of cables I traveled with. THE CABLES WENT IN AND POW! The whole system changed! It opened up. The music. The air. The decay. Immaculate.  That’s how we started on this journey 6 years ago! He took it upon himself to build equipment and cables so that the cables would never be a bottleneck again!

@grannyring @mahgister i don’t minimize what @mahgister has said or done. You can get the most out of what you have that way. But the build quality and technology in the right higher end equipment is just on another level. All things being equal. Synergy wise. I had some pretty good classe stuff early on 15 years ago but I hear the veloce Ls1 which was a battery powered expensive tube pre amp. At that moment I realized there are levels in this audio game. The difference was jaw dropping. The equipment was just next level. Soundstage transparency and detail. 0 noise floor. Wowwww!

@maghister you probably have done a great job maximizing what you have. But there is equipment that is just next level. My Infigo method 4 Dac for example uses the latest 9038 ess Sabre Dac chipset. The owner of our company worked with the chip inventor before. They have ways of limiting distortion built in to the build of the Dac while maintaining its musicality. Premium power supplies are used in the equipment. Everything has been researched to limit noise, distortion and crosstalk. We realized that the chip gives off heat and heat causes distortion. So mini heats sinks were built between the individual dac chips to limit that distortion caused in the second or third harmonics. There is a lot of technology parts and tried and proved implementation used in my Dac alone. Basic or other equipment is not going to give you that level of performance because you change your room. Is it expensive yes. But it took 2 whole years of work and a year worth research to develop it. A lot of trial and error was put into it. No matter how you set your room up. This thing with the right synergy is gonna sing regardless of what room it’s in. It’s going to wipe the floor with the entry level dacs period. It’s just built better all the way around. Sorry your room ain’t gonna beat the build quality and research that goes into a product like this. We have had dac shootouts with all of the similar cost no object products and we are held our own 100%. The Msb, lampiztor, wadax, Weiss, Nagra and the DCS. Look is it expensive yes. But the build quality of this type of gear as well as the technology and implementation is next level. Put this stuff in the perfect room with good synergy and it’s a wrap. There are just levels to everything. The Chevy ain’t gonna be a Lexus because the latter is just flat out built better with better parts, research and technology behind it.  @mahgister not minimizing what you have done. You make great points and have done an exceptional job with what you have but the room fixes all is part of the equation but with exceptional equipment in the right room and right synergy is where it’s at more than most. Even great components in a sub par room can still take you to bliss. Just my opinion!

@mahgister yes implementation is key. Our owner engineer has really focused on implementation. He obsesses about it. 

@jastralfu deep 333 would have you believe all dealers are blood sucking neophytes. That’s just not true. I literally allow the client to try before they buy. That’s why you gotta be careful with some of the posters here. They just go nutty once they see a high price then they jump on their soapboxes with their bullhorns. Jeez! 

@ghdprentice +1.  Great post I agree with you and I’m happy for you! 

I’m going to get straight to the point. A lot of us are plug in play. We can’t do anything to the room depending on your living and family situations. If you want to spend less you can. You can improve your room using a number og @mahgister suggestions as well as many others. But at the end of the day. I been doing this a long time now. I want to get my hands of the best equipment I can afford. Some people spend on luxury cars. I like Audio and I’m going to use what I learned to seek out the best equipment, synergy and cabling possible. I will build my system on those foundations. I can’t do anything to my room. All I’m saying is that you can get great sound out of a bad room. You just got to pick the right things to get you there. My system will sound good almost anywhere you would probably put it. Do what makes you happy. If you don’t like spending on high end stuff then don’t. But based on what I’m experiences in my home environment I’m extremely happy with my set up. I will keep doing me. There is nothing like well designed gear that eliminates noise and distortions and is still musical. My journey has placed me at the point I’m at and I’m happy. I’m listening to some beautiful Ahmad Jamal as we speak.  The piano sounds amazing!

@jjss49 man I’m not trying to offend you or anyone. I just have read the responses. Based on the responses. I have strong opinion about how I see things after this discussion. I’m listening. But some of us can’t do jack about the room. I been doing this for a while now after reading the comments. It seemed like your room can fix everything and in my opinion it can’t.  I don’t mean to come off as flippant. I just self sssured after listening to the answers and based on my personal experiences. 
 

@jjss49 my apologies if I come off a certain way. I enjoy having the conversation. I debate and argue for a living so please forgive me. 

@immatthewj i tend to agree with your approach more. 

@jjss49 I think this entire conversation has been great. There are two camps. Those that can work on their rooms that put really good work to maximize performance. Then there are those that will buy equipment that is less affected by the room that will still give them great sound despite them not doing anything to the room or being able too.  I think both sides have been well represented in this debate. By several posters. I enjoy talking audio and listening to music.  I wanna do it all day.