Equipment Rack

Short answer:  no

If you enjoy the fruits of SPs, simply find an affordable (and aesthetically attractive) rack for organizational purposes.  

If not, I recommend Starsound having owned both.  

now a question for you. How do you keep very low frequency and low frequency structureborne vibration from getting up into the component? One imagines you look the other way and hope it disappears.

cheers,

Geoff Kait
machina dynamica
we do artificial atoms right

What measurable sonic effects does such "low frequency" vibrations have?

answer, a lot . The impact of mounting my Magico Q3s on Townshend Seismic podia was profound. The quality of the bass response became much more natural, sounding exactly like the live unforced bass I heard in a concert just this last weekend

This link provides more background on the sources and effects of this insidious vibration, don't underestimate what it is doing to your system nor make the false assumption that because you are on a concrete slab a long way from a main road you are not still subject to the effect of micro earthquakes

I am familiar with the Townsend stuff.  There are no in situ measurements in that link per say.  It will be interesting to see what Starsound's new seismologist has to say about that topology. 

ricred1, I would try Starsound Apprentice XL stands under your speakers.  That is the place to start.  Their technology has the most obvious impact on things that vibrate the most (rooms, subs, speakers.....)

Try here for in-situ measurements, Townshend do the demo in place by jumping on the floor around the speakers

http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/townshend-audio-seismic-podium/

 I saw those too.  What about the vibrational energy from the speaker itself?  Where does that go with the Townsend paradigm.

They are expensive.  Wow.

In my system it stays in the speakers. At least for the bass range. Before the podiums (Magico spikes to floor) i felt the bass through my floor (wood on concrete) after the podiums i do not feel anything through the floor only through the air. You kind of miss the floor based boom at first but its really a fake effect, good for sound effects but not something i experience at live acoustic concerts

others with more knowldge of springs (Geoff?) may comment on whether the setup transmits higher frequencies, it may

recognize all of this is with a very inert cabinet design, and no ports on my Magico Q3s.

Ps agear. Nice room, mine is a similar size and likewise complex design albeit a more traditional Art Noxon design for sound isolation and bass response, despite the small size it works well and behaves as yours seems to really disappearing into the recorded acoustic

I guess the question is what makes the speaker more efficient in propagating energy as sound.  It would be interesting to take dB measurements to see if you achieve the same room filling sound as lower settings on your VC.  That is what I have discovered with my SS racks (and room).  I have gotten profound results even with cheesy, Craigslist grade speakers.  One speakers designer I had over claimed that a $75 Pioneers on Starsound apprentice stands sounded better than many 10k audiophile speakers he had heard.       

Magicos cabinets are engineered better than most and could well highlight the Townsend gear better.  It would be interesting to see its effects on the typical painted Chinese MDF.

The room was a lot of fun to create but the formal reveal is still pending.  Clement Perry from Stereotimes is coming to review it once my system fiddling is complete.

You put a lot of energy and $ into your beautiful room and that was very smart.  My younger brother lives in Portland.  If I visit in the near future, I will have to swing by for a listen.   

The Apprentice stands are nowhere near that price tag.  

Folk, is your system more or less efficient with the Townsend products in place?  In other words, do you still have to turn your pre-amp to 11 or is it now lower?

Actually, to be fair, I was not picking on your products. I was picking on your science. See the difference?

Have a nice day,

Geoff Kait
machina dynamica
Give me a strong enough spring and I’ll isolate the world

A master of irony we are.....;

What do you do for a living or are you a full time audio tweak guru?  I cannot imagine that is more fertile ground for an aerospace engineer than NASA.....

Robert -- Geoff and I both asked for a link to an independent third party data source on how your spikes, or any other similar device could act as a mechanical diode able to isolate against seismological effects, You have yet to provide this. As far as I can tell you have brought no facts to this "debate"

To be fair, no manufacturer has provided such data.

I personally am unconvinced that isolation from the boogey man of seismology has any real relevance.

Maybe another thread can be started. The OP is clearly not acting on any of this.

Geoff Kait
machina dynamica
Give me a strong enough spring and I’ll isolate the world

to which agear commented,

"A master of irony we are.....;"

what’s ironic about it?

Then agear inquired,

"What do you do for a living or are you a full time audio tweak guru? I cannot imagine that is more fertile ground for an aerospace engineer than NASA...."

NASA? Shirley you’re joking. Makes the shackles on the back of neck stand up.

Have a nice day

Geoff, you are not connecting the dots. Its ironic simply because because you yourself have been ridiculed on multiple forums for the absence of any science behind your products. I don’t agree with that stance necessarily, but it is what it is. Trolls be trolls.

The NASA reference is derived from your CV/bio on your website.  I don't understand your response. 

What do you do for a living?

I have yet to read anything thus far in this thread that would qualify as "science" which implies reproducible data.  It is merely speculative physics (hello....it is the audiophilia after all).  I am sure it could be had with the right labs, R&D budget, etc.  Townsend data is non-existent.  Machina has none.  I know SS was working with a third party lab on various projects but I am unsure what happened.  The data has yet to materialize.  This is the state of audio.  Posturing from one company against another is simply unadulterated hypocrisy.    

Mr. Kait, instead of attempting physics lessons, show us the measurements backing up any of your products.  One relevant to this thread would be helpful.  Put that dusty undergraduate engineering degree to use.

Rather than coming on like a bull in a china shop I suggest you head on over to your local library and do some due diligence.. You mightt even consider a refresher course in physics., this is not that difficult, are you what, an English major? Heck, you can even go to my page on vibration isolation. its been on my website fro gosh I don’t know how long.

but above all have a nice day.

Again, a maestro of irony. Avoiding the question is not a valid position. The information is not for me but rather for the sake of your audience right? That is why you post. You are not an intellectual good Samaritan.

No, I am not an english major. Making patronizing assumptions is not a defensible position either. I am merely a physician for whom english is my primary language. I have an undergraduate and graduate degree from the same intuition you apparently went to. I have enough math and physics in my belt to facilitate meaningless exchanges on this and other sites. But I digress. Machinaman, I find your scatty brand of audio sophistry highly entertaining so keep it up.

ps regarding your comments on lack of science I for one have no problem with references to known and published science (e.g. use of springs to manage seismic interference, even Mr Kait's citing of Sheldrake to support some of his tweaks), it's the stuff I've never heard of before that I expect people to be able to provide some back up for. WIthout a source it's hard to attach any credibility for or against

Folk, my point about science was in reference to specific experiments and measurable results.  I have seen no data from Mr. Kait demonstrating the effects of spring isolation on speakers for example.  None.  Yes, there are historical references to springs and seismic "interference" but what does this have to do with audio?  The onus is on  him to prove his point with reproducible data.  

Adding the Townshend Podiums had somewhat of a similar effect in the bass range. The immediate effect seems to be that the speakers are LESS efficient. i.e. it "sounds" less loud at the same volume setting. But quickly you realize that this is the removal of the floor borne boom that I described in a prior post. I find then that some tracks that had been limited by a bass distortion (e.g. a resonance or boom) could now be turned up a couple of notches without any issues.

So overall I cannot make any conclusion as to whether the Townshend kit has made my speaker more efficient in absolute terms, all I can say is that it helps get the speaker/room interface out of the way and lets you hear what is on the track irrespective of volume level

Your room boom and whatnot may be more of an energy management issue within the room itself and not a deficiency of spikes, etc.  Furthermore, if you view a speaker/room as a musical instrument (like a violin), you don't want to isolate or dampen energy.  You want to harness it correctly, like this:

http://http//toneacoustics.com

I supposed you could use a spring or Townsend like device for a cello, but it would kill the music.  Now isolating the actual stage from seismic juju with springs is an exciting concept.  Maybe that would improve the entire orchestral performance....;)  

My words of wisdom for today is anyone who spends time worrying about how seismic waves will affect their hifi, Walkman or whatever one listens to probably has bigger issues to address first.

Mapman, that is a ringer.  Bravo.  I had a good belly laugh over that one.  

Sorry for the dead link:

http://toneacoustics.com

bccoven wrote,

"Oh, you want an explanation of how it works? OK....give me a couple hours and I'll make something up. Whether it has any grounding in science (or hell, reality for that matter) is irrelevant -- it's an explanation, right? Gimme a break. Maybe you should "teleport" yourself back to whatever planet you came from (and take your Peter Belt science textbooks with you)."



Ouch! Very ouch!

Jeff, is that from another thread?  Its tempting to use that line on you but it does not win points for originality.....

Where are the moderators? This thread is screaming for some heavy editing. It's a shame to see a discussion on such an important subject as racks degenerate into personal attacks. Sistrum and Geoff Kait should take their dispute off the forum. It isn't advancing either of you.

Sal, if you use the same moniker on other forums (WBF, CA, etc), I have witnessed your own pointy (pun intended) behaviors, so I am little surprised by your ambassadorial sentiment.  A little trash talking is okay by me.  Too much tight sphinctered, PC mind control is stale and contributes little to the dialogue IMO.  

For what it's worth, I recognize the critical importance of racks and footers. I have also tried AudioPoints under many components but have yet to find a place where they were an improvement. Different yes, but not an improvement. I could say the same about a whole host of other footers such as half a dozen Herbie's doodads, many different cones (brass, aluminum, ceramic etc.), Sorbothane, and all sorts of other materials. The only keepers to date have been wood products, either solid wood or plywood. I haven't tried very many commercial equipment racks due to the expense, but I have been pleased with a Sound Anchors steel stand for my turntable (with a wood platform on top). I also use Sound Anchors amp stands but all other electronics are on wood stands or racks.

So you are using wood as a tone control which is fine.  Its all about system voicing at the end of the day.  BTW, I know people have used Audiopoints in conjunction with Sound Anchor stuff (which is a valid product).  At one time I believe SS points were sold as an upgrade.  To each his own.    

Geoff, you need to catalogue the insults much like this blogger did in response to his hate mail:  

http://www.somethingawful.com/your-band-sucks/your-band-sucks-2/

You are a retired engineer correct?  You obviously have the time to post....

No, this is how the big boys do it:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjS0Z7V97fOAhVF6CYKHf13BcUQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.machinadynamica.com%2Fmachina25.htm&bvm=bv.129422649,d.eWE&psig=AFQjCNFcGUiEGVQDIMBJYi5hZGEZpyORNQ&ust=1470955834214660

gdhal, I am glad you appreciated my funny.....;)

Snear, better work on your material. It's not that funny. I'm here to be entertained. So entertain me.

You got zinged Geoff.  Its okay.  You yourself lack originality (and self-insight) as you have used that same tired line on other threads:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/machina-dynamica-mini-isolators 

What's this, revenge of the nerds PT. 2?

This is audio after all.  Is that a revelation?  I have a near photographic memory (like my father and his father and brothers...an interesting aside) and can recycle meaningless crap like that.  Here is another:

geoffkait
3,856 posts
08-04-2016 3:25pm

I'm sure you've undoubtly forgotten all of your math and physics so no need to puff yourself up. Education is what's left after you forgot everything you learned in school.

Here it is again: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/5-thd-to-000-thd-sound/post?postid=1341991

and again:  https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/what-direction-should-hi-fi-tune-fuse-be-installed

and again:  http://www.stereophile.com/content/morphic-resonance-interview-rupert-sheldrake-scientific-american

and again:  http://www.stereophile.com/content/about-tweaks-and-snake-oil


I think a more apropos take on Einstein's ditty and one that is more relevant to the current state of audio is:

"NO EDUCATION CAN WITHSTAND THE OPIUM OF QUANTUM PHYSICS WHEN PIMPED OUT IN THE NAME OF AUDIO."

There are a LOT of racks, cones , spikes, pods etc. value oriented to ultra expensive. My Avalon speakers now rest on Stillpoint ultras instead of original spikes ; ( Yes, Improved the sound) my amps rest on Black Diamond Racing "The Shelf" using the Avalon spikes (Yes, Improved the sound) The rest of my system is not in my sound room ( around the corner ) Preamp to Amps 25' pr. of ICs. ( Yes, Improved the sound ) The only changes that I intend to make are ; Stillpoint ultras to replace Avalon spikes under amps and change 25'pr of single ended ICs to Balanced. I continue to look at all the Virtual Systems with gear stacked Between the Speakers and I just Think to myself; Stop the madness ! I only play Vinyl now ; but if you want to stop vibration to your components ; Get them OUT of the room!!!!

I have used Stillpoints (gen I), Equarack footers, Herbie's, Sound Anchor, Adona, etc, etc.  I do agree with you about getting equipment out of the equation in some capacity (or at least limiting the amount of crap between the speakers....avoid building a tower...keep it low, etc, etc).  However, for me personally, the room and speakers are #1 and 2 in terms of energy management.  The is the holy grail.  


A 25 ft run of Oracle MA-Xs will cost you dearly!

I am a lucky guy ;( No Kids ) very good WAF, ( told her this was my retirement system ) her response "she doesn't believe me"

Priceless.  Sounds like my wife (she cannot stand the hobby but loves music).  

You should create a system thread so you can document your 45 yr journey.  What tts do you own?  I have been eyeing the Palmer out of the UK.....

As far as I can tell the most math doctors need is addition, you know, for adding up the bill. I, by comparison, went all the way.

J. Edgar Hoover: Do you go all the way?

Shirley Temple: No.

J. Edgar Hoover: I don't either.

;-)

The take home message is simple:  time for some new material.  We are all here to be entertained (as well), and the last thing we want is for Grandpa to keep telling the same stories....;)

Agear: "The take home message is simple: time for some new material. We are all here to be entertained (as well), and the last thing we want is for Grandpa to keep telling the same stories....;)

Would it be safe to assume (no pun intended) since you apparently have no sense of humor you’re not a proctologist?

I have a good sense of humor, and you provide plenty of unintended comic relief Geoff.... 

Hey agear i play guitar ! now thats is annoying lol ( why do you need 20 plus guitars ?? That ones is all scratched up and old lol) ... Pick up a trumpet and start learning it in the living room your lady will love your system.. Lol

Oleschool, I have two small children (4 1/2 years and 19 months).  Hannah already has as guitar and Julia has access to cymbals, drums, etc.  You can see pics on one of my system threads......:)

astro, why are the minis more adept at handling "micro vibrations" than the standard Stillpoint?

That’s why my spring based systems have been and are in some of best systems extant.

Please provide pictures or links to said systems.  

Geoff, those images are from 2002. As you intonated earlier, things have moved on. I have perused a majority of the virtual systems on this site, and your springs are no where to be found.

As I mentioned earlier LIGO uses springs and they are required to use what's best. Why more audiophiles don't use springs, well, you'll have to ask them. "I looked everywhere but couldn't find them" is a common refrain.

Diversionary answer.  LIGO is irrelevant.  How about a cheap bedspring for a violin endpin?  Now that would make the music come to life.  

Since no one in the Audiogon ecosystem appears to be using your products, how about a pic of your own system unless of course its a lonely walkman as Monsieur Greene insinuated.   

LIGO this the most sensitive physics experiment in history! the gravity waves which it detected finally last year had amplitude the diameter of a neutron. If LIGO uses springs as opposed to some cones or spikes or other coupling devices then springs are require to achieve the experiment objectives.

And the relevance of that in regards to audio is what?  We are not measuring things but propagating energy.  Again, a spring for a violin endpin?  I think not.  What have you actually measured in regards to your products and their performance or is it all quantum divination?

ps for those with good memories Machina Dynamica spring based platforms were highly desirable and much sought after back in the day on Vinyl Asylum, I’m sorry I did not get the chance to acquire one when they were available

You can always redeem the loss by snagging a teleportation tweak:  http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina60.htm

Folks, I think we have the answer:  http://https//www.audiogon.com/listings/stands-machina-dynamica-bio-mikro-g-isolation-stand-2016-09-03-accessories-22042-mosby-va