Equipment Rack


Does it make sense to spend several thousands of dollars on a equipment rack, if Stillpoints are used under every component?
ricred1
1.  Contact Stillpoints, see what they recommend.

2.  Does any of this make sense?
onhwy61,
Your second question is really funny! I’ve asked myself that same question several times.
Post removed 
ebm,
I will research symposium racks. 
Also look at Core Audio Designs, I never felt the need to throw away my money in isolation tweaks. Solid hardwood construction with dampening materials in every shelf.  

I own a pair of PlyKraft's and amp stands for now 5 plus years. 
Hi,

It seems from your pics that you have a concrete floor?

I have a WAY better solution for isolation if that is indeed what you really need?

ebm, ""overpriced junk". Wow!

Let's look at this objectively...

Symposium Rack ...expensive
Stillpoints ...expensive

The main issue is to evaluate products for yourself. To do otherwise is a thoughtless dream with no reality.


astro58go,

My floor is carpeted with a wooden floor underneath. I already have stillpoints under all of my components. Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to "listen" to different racks in my system. Lets assume stillpoints do a great job of isolation. If so, why would I need to spend several thousand on a rack?
Seems like an unanswerable question.  I will say that I got my used Billy Bags rack, that cost 4 digits new, for 3 digits.  So there's that.  I'll add that even though I truly heard an immediate (and unexpected) improvement in overall sound quality when I installed the rack, I still have brass tiptoes, sorbathane pucks, and various other sundries sprinkled throughout the system!  Also, although I'm currently living in an apt. with concrete floors, prior to this I lived in a house where my rig was on the 2nd level which had wood floors (carpeted).  The rig definitely sounds better in the apt! 

Will only speak for Star Sound Audio Points™ and every series of Sistrum Platforms™:

There are significant increases in sonic performance when stepping up from Audio Points to any higher priced Sistrum Platforms within every product category of the Star Sound product line up. Our promise is that every step of the way there will be significant increases in performance from the equipment you already own.

In our opinion and in order to accomplish this claim, a single technology with applied geometry combined with material science must exist within the core structural design of all product offerings.

The difference between a group of components with "any" cones sitting upon some type of equipment stand versus having components sitting on a product specifically designed to channel airborne/mechanical/electromechanical interfering energy onto a resonance conductive shelf which in turn is explicitly designed to channel that detrimental energy to the support rods, which in turn are specially engineered to channel that same energy efficiently to “ground” at high speed via the same geometry that is used “at the component level” is quite dramatic when listening and judging performance in musicality.

The big picture behind any Sistrum Platform is a model of operational “efficiency” engineered to carry unwanted energy from each component to the grounding plane commonly referred to as the greater sink or mass (rack to floor, component to rack, etc) and not just isolate each component from the next.

If your rack is designed as an anti-vibration isolation product or is wood furniture; the questions are where does all that energy caused from vibration go? Worse case is if the energy is being isolated from the rack and is primarily stored within the electronic component or loudspeaker as this establishes greater operational “inefficiencies” resulting in greater heat and resonance build up hence affecting performance (per Coulomb's Law).

Next, how does the rack react to each independently isolated piece of gear and what type of additional audible frequencies (commonly known as rack chatter) are expanded in the room from all the various vibrating combinations of racking build materials?

Since it is quite difficult to apply geometry to the family of primary absorbent materials as used in restrained layered damping techniques such as sand, lead, rubber and stone… are these also absorbing the live dynamics and/or harmonic structures we all look to attain in listening?

How do plastics, polymers, acrylics, glass, stones, woods, etc react to temperature and humidity changes and are they absorptive, reflective or conductive for resonance?

And does the rack have a pathway or means of rapid exit for the interfering energy to flow to the flooring?

These are examples of questions rarely asked of rack manufacturers.

Every equipment rack, just like every cone, spike, bearing or any other type of footer system does sound and perform entirely different. No two are remotely close to having the same sonic signature especially when used in tandem. Unfortunately one cannot easily listen and compare the differences that equipment racking makes since it is far easier to switch out a pair of very expensive cables but…


“know this”… the equipment racking decision is the most critical step in listening or advancing the performance value of any system. The equipment racks and speaker stands governs ‘overall’ sonic capability meaning every sound from every piece of equipment you purchase forever can only perform as good as what the rack/stand delivers! More important to that fact is how the equipment rack reacts and functions in the vibrating structural listening room itself.

Chances are you thought it was the speakers or amplifiers making the majority of difference in sound reproduction where the bottom line actually is the structural foundation they reside on.

Personally working with thousands of listeners and audiophiles for the past sixteen years, many of whom began with Audio Points and worked their way up to the much higher priced Platform products and have never experienced a situation where the lower priced items outperformed the higher.

In our case there are huge differences when comparing cones to racking where cost increases definitely do provide more musical experiences and higher levels of enjoyment from listening. Hope this helps and does not confuse. You are more than welcome to telephone and we will be happy to answer all your questions.

Robert Maicks

Star Sound



P.T. Barnum was right.

So was Coulomb!

We see you are a musician, - up for a listening test?

Robert



I like my timber nation rack very much. Solid built and beautiful finish. 
Call Alan at 'STANDOUT'... designs for your Equipment Consol. 877-325-9663. Excellent isolation, real hardwoods, no need for stillpoints.
I'll add another recommendation for Core Audio Design racks.  Extremely well made and effective, well isolated, no need for additional isolation tweaks.
Thanks for the suggestions. I'm at a point that I'm so happy with my system. Although I have priced a couple Quadraspire racks, I'm still not convinced an expense rack is money well spent. 



Every concept for footer or rack mentioned previous other than the post dated 7-21 are anisotropic in design or by nature. Multiple materials and speeds make for multiple refracted pathways. All materials have a resonance memory.. and shape is all part of this memory and its release. Using many materials with various shapes and boundaries predicts a varied attack and decay over a confused time frame.  The fix is in choosing the right  material and it's refracting shape. Talk about first reflection...it all starts with the materials and shapes you have chosen to set your audio components on..all those different wave fronts will create more interfering energy all within the component, your system and your room.  Multiple reflection points can be created before the first acoustic reflection point occurs.. prior to the first acoustic wave launched from your speaker reaches the the nearest room boundary. The fix is in the chosen material and it's refracting shape. The fewer parts the better..less gives you more music.  Remember isolation can only exist in the absence of matter..if you get the drift. Hey Cartman where would we be today without matter?  Tom. working with Star Sound Technologies
theaudiotweak,

In layman's terms, what are you saying? 
Theaudiotweak wrote,

"Remember isolation can only exist in the absence of matter..if you get the drift."

Nobody ever said isolation is or has to be perfect 100% isolation. What we’re talking about is actually rather imperfect isolation, a low passive mechanical filter (for most iso devices) that is inefficient for very low frequencies but increasing effective as one goes up in frequency. You know, depending on where the resonant frequency point happens to be. Thus by the point you get up to say 20 Hz the isolation is very close to 100%. And for frequencies that really count, e.g., the resonant frequencies of tonearms, cartridges, laser assemblies, etc. Circa 10-12 Hz the effectiveness of a competent iso device is actually quite good.

Ricred1

I sent you a message thru Audiogon. 
Most any answer would most likely generate another question which would be most efficient to answer in a phone conversation.

Thanks,
Tom

Geoff’s right ya know. Isolation down to around 3Hz can be accomplished pretty cheaply via a mechanical filter. With it in place, the nature of the shelf under the filter makes far less difference. A lot of people are "tuning" their audio equipment, not isolating it.
bdp24,
Please provide me an example of a mechanical filter product that I can purchase.
So these mechanical filters, how do they relieve a component of the on board self generated noise from transformers, motor drives,filter capacitors, wiring and really anything that is electrically or mechanically connected within the chassis This is all one circuit path so how do you suggest removing this interfering energy? Tom
theaudiotweak
1,353 posts
07-25-2016 12:37pm
So these mechanical filters, how do they relieve a component of the on board self generated noise from transformers, motor drives,filter capacitors, wiring and really anything that is electrically or mechanically connected within the chassis This is all one circuit path so how do you suggest removing this interfering energy? Tom

Nobody said the mechanical filters relieve vibration from the shelf or the component sitting on the shelf, including the electronic elements inside the component. I trust I didn’t give that impression. At the same time there are any number of (relatively lo-tech) ways to deal with those issues, including but not limited to constrained layer damping, vibration dissipators like those Tekna Sonic dampers, cork damping, damping of the top plate of the "mechanical filter," shielding the component from airborne vibration, damping transformers, CD transport mechanisms, use of very hard materials such as NASA grade ceramics to mount the component on the top plate as well as to mount the iso device on the floor or rack and Marigo VTS dots for all capacitors, circuit boards, electron tubes and the chassis itself.

now a question for you. How do you keep very low frequency and low frequency structureborne vibration from getting up into the component? One imagines you look the other way and hope it disappears.

cheers,

Geoff Kait
machina dynamica
we do artificial atoms right

Short answer:  no

If you enjoy the fruits of SPs, simply find an affordable (and aesthetically attractive) rack for organizational purposes.  

If not, I recommend Starsound having owned both.  
now a question for you. How do you keep very low frequency and low frequency structureborne vibration from getting up into the component? One imagines you look the other way and hope it disappears.

cheers,

Geoff Kait
machina dynamica
we do artificial atoms right
What measurable sonic effects does such "low frequency" vibrations have?
What measurable sonic effects does such "low frequency" vibration have?

answer, a lot . The impact of mounting my Magico Q3s on Townshend Seismic podia was profound. The quality of the bass response became much more natural, sounding exactly like the live unforced bass I heard in a concert just this last weekend

This link provides more background on the sources and effects of this insidious vibration, don't underestimate what it is doing to your system nor make the false assumption that because you are on a concrete slab a long way from a main road you are not still subject to the effect of micro earthquakes 




I can't find any information regarding cost. How much are the Townshend Podias?
Geoff,

Let me get to our 'Point...

The opinions of the engineers who have worked on this study throughout our history stated all along that the geometry governing the tip of the Audio Point rejected low frequency from the floor surface. Our newest  associate in science flew in for a meeting to fully see what we were doing as she found our design for the mechanical grounding of musical instruments on the web and thought the two of us might be sharing on an infringement with regards to each other’s patents and methods.

She brought her product with her in order to make comparisons. Interesting in that our products were two totally different concepts but arrived at near the same listening result. She noticed the Star Sound Sistrum Platforms, Audio Points and the new Platter Ground and commented on their geometry and the fact that the tip was shaped at angles that would reject low frequency attempting to pass up through the point tip. I asked her how she knew this? She said it was common knowledge in her field of seismic science that this shape was a mechanical diode.

Rather than commit additional time is searching what was known to be common knowledge in seismology which is not our number one topic of research or understanding, we decided as a group to compare more information. Shortly thereafter all the members from each company chose to combine efforts and share in the acquiring of additional Patents based on each technical approach to vibration management..

As for the handling of vibration and in your words “your low tech approaches” in dealing with vibration across all the various and numerous parts of the electronic component, we find them to be anisotropic (physics of unequal physical properties along different axes) in design and nature.

Since we are of the isotropic group (having physical properties that do not vary with direction) the limited two materials used in our designs provide higher speeds at which all energy being  transferred allows for greater management over time, speed and decay. These three physical effects provide the difference you hear in the performance and sound quality of our technology compared to all the rest.

Tom,
Star Sound Technologies


Theaudiotweak wrote,

"As for the handling of vibration and in your words “your low tech approaches” in dealing with vibration across all the various and numerous parts of the electronic component, we find them to be anisotropic (physics of unequal physical properties along different axes) in design and nature."

Actually those were not my words. What I actually said was relatively low tech methods (like damping) can be used to deal with vibration on the top plate of the mechanical filter and in the component. As for your answer to my question regarding how your product deals with seismic type vibration it appears to be some sort of mumbo jumbo. To whit,

"Since we are of the isotropic group (having physical properties that do not vary with direction) the limited two materials used in our designs provide higher speeds at which all energy being transferred allows for greater management over time, speed and decay. These three physical effects provide the difference you hear in the performance and sound quality of our technology compared to all the rest."

cheers,

geoff kait

ricred -- Townshend products are distributed in the US by EAR-USA. Although the EAR-USA site does not have much information Dan can get any of the products. Townshend have products at a range of prices, the seismic podiums are actually among the most expensive -- price varies by size but mine made for 300lb Q3s were about $2500.

This UK based dealer has the full range and the prices when quoted in $ without tax (i.e. exc VAT) should be similar to the US list prices -- you can order direct if you want (which is actually how I got mine)

Here we go again Mr. Geoff Kait,

If you personally do not grasp or comprehend information provided by anyone who contributes to the education and advancement of audio, what…? Is it now classified as mumbo jumbo?

You obviously missed Tom’s answer to your question which included - “the fact that the tip was shaped at angles that would reject low frequency attempting to pass up through the point tip. I asked her how she knew this? She said it was common knowledge in her field of seismic science that this shape was a mechanical diode.”

By picking out a small portion of his “total and complete” response to your question and classifying said small portion as mumbo jumbo just goes to prove time and again how much of an obstructionist you actually are on this forum, my personal opinion of course.

Were you able to self research or speak with anyone of authority whose education is specific to seismology to confirm Tom's complete response?  

AND before you begin to take aim at our newest team member who supplied a brief reply for your question, please note that she is a Registered Professional Engineer (PE)  and a Registered Geologist (PG) . For over 30 years she has interpreted seismic data for many different industries. She has authored and presented 14 papers on different aspects of interpretation and understanding compressional waves to the Society of Exploration Geophysicists (SEG) International and she has also worked as a Geotechnical Engineer in the housing industry.

AND since we already discovered that personal credentials other than your own are meaningless to you and In order to provide the proof you continuously demand… that of which can “never” be completely explained in print because of your ongoing tactics to create even more ambiguous arguments before any question is completely answered..., including those technologies that are totally above your ability to comprehend, we would like to invite you in and listen to an Energy Room™.

Dr. Andrew Gear, (Agear) a long time member here on AudioGon would enjoy having you over for an audition. At the very least this listening session would provide the physical proof from personal experience that not only are the Sistrum Platforms™ “not” affected by very low frequencies but the room construction, walls flooring and ceilings on the whole are also “not” affected - and all this performance without the existence of any acoustic panels, traps, etc.. The Energy Room is the first audio product of its kind and directly relates to the function of the platform and technology. You will hear a musical presentation unlike anything you have ever experienced in your past - of this we are extremely confident. Up for a visit or wait for the reviews?

Furthermore, historically you have yet to provide us any answers and/or proof whatsoever to our questions about your products. In fact the only answers we have ever received state you are not willing to answer “straw man arguments” yet you continue to demand the same from others so...

Can we book your flight?

Yours truly and “to whit”,

Robert Maicks

Star Sound

PS: If you really want to learn something new in audio take us up on the invitation to visit an Energy Room. Star Sound will cover the plane ticket and travel expenses.



I would love to use footers to help isolate more of my components from the effects of outside low frquency noise but am not convinced by this concept of a certain shape being a "mechanical diode"at the frequencies in question and given the vagaries of different loads on the footer

Could you provide a link to a reference for those of us not deep into seismic science? I tried searching but could not come up with anything.

Would be great to have an alternative to the spring based solutions I am currently using
If it were actually true that the pointed tips of cones and other pointy footers prevented seismic vibration from coming up into the component then why are there so many advanced seismic isolation devices around, not only the ones supporting scanning electron microscopes but the ones in laboratories and universities around the world? Why wouldn’t they all just use "mechanical diodes?" Wouldn’t it be easier and cheaper? And why wouldn’t LIGO, the physics experiment designed to detect gravity waves, also use mechanical diodes in it’s vibration isolation, at least in part of it’s isolation system? Why does LIGO, you know, the project that DID observe gravity waves last year, the ones produced by a merger of two black holes, due ENTIRELY to the effectiveness of it’s seismic isolation system, use springs and pendulums and other advanced vibration isolation systems and NOT mechanical diodes? The answer is that mechanical diodes are not effective as a seismic vibration isolator whereas mass on spring systems are. That probably explains the plethora of advanced isolation devices that have been introduced into the audiophiles market the past twenty years. How many Vibraplanes have been sold since it was introduced twenty years ago? Heck, gotta be close to 10,000.

Necessity is the mother of invention.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
machina dynamica
give me a strong enough spring and I’ll isolate the world

Addendum to my last: apparently you guys including your "seismic expert" don’t appreciate the problem fully’ Because the Earth’s crust motion and other very low frequency generators like wind ,traffic and wave action on the shore produce wave action of the Earth surface, the entire building is moving. thus, ANY solid coupling to the floor or rack simply allows that building motion to FORCE the component to move along with it, in concert with it.t. This is true not only for the vertical direction but for all six directions of motion. Since the vibrational wave on the surface of the Earth has six components. due to its wavelike nature any solid "mechanical diode" is physically incapable of dealing with rotational and horizontal forces, even if I give you credit for some vertical isolation which I actually don’t. so, like a small boat on the ocean, when a wave passes under it the boat moves up and down as well as rolls side to side and back and forth as well.

cheers,

Geoff Kait

machina dynamica

Coming from California I can truly understand isolation , we are not dealing with earths vibes. In this hobby we can effectively isolate and even better drain/remove internal noise . If you have turntable rumble or a needle bouncing due to wooden floors you must isolate that component.Now that you have isolated your components you are storing ALL internal noise and energy from tubes,transformers ,etc.Now let's remove all of the internal noise, vibration without total isolation.Open the drain and let it go.Wow this is better than a high dollar component change.After 10 + years of using AUDIO POINTS I am able to enjoy the full potential of my components.I can now enjoy the music in a more LIVE and realistic way.Only ridding the internal noise will bring the live performance to you.Your system has way more potential than you even know.Trust your ears, audio points are keepers.I have absolutely no affiliation with this company whatsoever.I was fortunate enough to borrow a few thing from a friend.Boy was I skeptical.Voodoo,snakeoil,whatever.This stuff actually works wonders above other products.If you can A/B against your stuff you will be amazed.You do have to let it settle a couple days or so.When removed you will be highly disappointed.This is my experience. Hear what you already have, you might lose that high dollar upgrade bug.       Happy listening,Rick W.
Post removed 
 
rickw062
18 posts
07-27-2016 2:50pm
Coming from California I can truly understand isolation , we are not dealing with earths vibes. In this hobby we can effectively isolate and even better drain/remove internal noise . If you have turntable rumble or a needle bouncing due to wooden floors you must isolate that component.Now that you have isolated your components you are storing ALL internal noise and energy from tubes,transformers ,etc.Now let's remove all of the internal noise, vibration without total isolation.Open the drain and let it go.Wow this is better than a high dollar component change.After 10 + years of using AUDIO POINTS I am able to enjoy the full potential of my components.I can now enjoy the music in a more LIVE and realistic way.Only ridding the internal noise will bring the live performance to you.Your system has way more potential than you even know.Trust your ears, audio points are keepers.I have absolutely no affiliation with this company whatsoever.I was fortunate enough to borrow a few thing from a friend.Boy was I skeptical.Voodoo,snakeoil,whatever.This stuff actually works wonders above other products.If you can A/B against your stuff you will be amazed.You do have to let it settle a couple days or so.When removed you will be highly disappointed.This is my experience. Hear what you already have, you might lose that high dollar upgrade bug.     Happy listening,Rick W.

I agree in general. I already commented in detail regarding damping or dissipating or otherwise dealing with internal and or airborne vibrations IN ADDITION TO actual vibration isoaltion, the type that addresses Earth crust motion and other very low frequency vibration producers. Have no idea on Earth why you would say, "we are not dealing with Earth's vibes." 

Have a nice day 

Wow, this is even more fun than interconnects/power cords discussions! As I said before re. Valhalla for Naim Audio boxes, no one of us, mere consumers will ever be able to check all our options! Demo-ing in brick-and-mortar shops is our only choice. 
Personally, I got pArticular rack based on the advise from John Schwartz at Chicago Pro Musica and even now, 20 years later, I do not regret it! The one thing I noticed about marketing of such goodies was  from Mapleshade company. They make such open and clear-sounding CDs (and sell 'em for next to nothing!) that you start to wonder if their ugly racks and cones and cords make a difference!! Nifty marketing strategy for those companies which cannot afford travel accommodations for unbelievers. 
My most noticeable upgrade as I was climbing from the entry-level to the Top of Naim's "olive" series was Mana Acoustics stands for Naim SBL speakers. Have no idea if it was some PhD in seismology who designed them, do not care if my Personal Guru, Art Dudley of Listener (and now with Stereophile) says that it is bull, these things do work! 

Hello Geoff,

You are the only one convinced Star Sound has or are overlooking a problem. Obviously you do not understand our approach to vibration management and/or product functionality or you would realize that our platforms are designed to vibrate and yes, they move because they are coupled to the flooring. The Energy Rooms™ are also direct coupled to the structural foundation so they also move ‘in rhythm’ with the earth.

Star Sound products do “NOT” Isolate.

Isolation prohibits the evacuation of resonance formed from vibration. Said resonance builds up within and on all surface areas of the chassis including circuits and all the small parts, wire, power supplies, etc., including every part and surface area of the chassis. This establishes tremendous component operational inefficiencies as this resonance also propagates on all smooth surfaces clogging all signal pathways (electrical, electromechanical and acoustic) per Coulomb’s Law.

Without a mechanical exit point this energy, caused from vibration, greatly inhibits the functionality of all individual parts of the component or loudspeaker especially when located within a vibrating environment.

Contrary to the majority of audio industry beliefs, theorems and applied concepts, our approach to vibration is to let all the parts and chassis vibrate at will. In a musical environment components and loudspeakers are going to vibrate so we decided to begin experimenting with a reverse approach to historical understanding. Our technology is based on the rapid transfer and exit of interfering energy in continuous motion via a conduit of a specific geometry and material science. Simple and basic mechanical understanding with lots of investments into a lot of steels and brasses, years of prototyping and taking a lot of studies on how various musical instruments are manufactured provided us the methodology that established Live-Vibe Technology™.

A few of us involved with Star Sound grew up in the professional sound and recording sciences industry. We were exposed to acoustic and mechanical devices built on isolation theorems, constrained layer damping, absorption and diffusion techniques so believe me when I say “we get it and we understand it”. Those approaches grew into too many variables in order to support a single geometry. Example: Your isolation approach requires different and various sized springs based on chassis weights whereas our smallest Platforms support a half ton of mass eliminating the weight management category. We continued to search for a more simplified approach to improving sonic performance especially knowing that musical sound quality is such a highly subjective yet highly sought after experience.

Say what you will about any of our products or technology as many people have since our inception however, the most important accomplishment that remains totally undeniable is product functionality. The performance is described by many as stunning audible results in all aspects of sound particularly in the “live” sense.

We placed Live-Vibe Technology inside loudspeakers and electronics chassis, built a highly successful line of equipment racking, built mechanically grounded recording and playback environments and are now marrying it to musical instruments. Each step of the way this technology rewarded us with a more musical presentation and a clientele of audiophiles, listeners and musicians that continues to grow and assist us in advancing Live-Vibe Technology.

So we are a bit different, almost opposite in fact. The sciences surrounding commercial isolation products do not apply to our means. 

We are patiently awaiting your next objection and you are correct - necessity is the mother of all invention but did you know that music soothes the mother...

Let it Vibrate!

Robert

Star Sound




Robert. Still hoping for a link to a reference showing how a mechanical spike can act as a mechanical diode to filter out seismic interference? You claimed this was "common knowledge" so would love to hear more

Also I’m a tad confused as to how a mechanical diode (isolation in other words) fits into your system. From the following it would seem this is not the effect you are after? Again apologies if I’m confused

they move because they are coupled to the flooring. The Energy Rooms™ are also direct coupled to the structural foundation so they also move ‘in rhythm’ with the earth

Star Sound products do “NOT” Isolate.


Robert wrote,

"Isolation prohibits the evacuation of resonance formed from vibration. Said resonance builds up within and on all surface areas of the chassis including circuits and all the small parts, wire, power supplies, etc., including every part and surface area of the chassis. This establishes tremendous component operational inefficiencies as this resonance also propagates on all smooth surfaces clogging all signal pathways (electrical, electromechanical and acoustic) per Coulomb’s Law."

Robert, as I already said damping is necessary and sufficient to deal with (medium and high frequency) vibrations that show up on the top plate of an isolation device, whether produced by an internal motor, transformer, CD transport mechanism, acoustic waves, etc. BUT this is in addition to isolation which is necessary to deal with the *very low frequency* structureborne vibrations. It is not true that isolation prevents the internal vibrations from escaping the system. The trick is to properly isolate and properly damp without over damping. If there were no such thing as isolation or if isolation prevented vibrations from escaping the system, as you say, then the LIGO project would never have been able to detect gravity waves, the amplitudes of which, by the way, are on the order of the diameter of a neutron. In fact, LIGO would never have been able to detect gravity waves without vibration isolation. Period. Surely your seismic expert knows that.

I have almost always used vibration dissipation, "mechanical diodes" and damping techniques in conjunction with or integrated into my isolation platforms, including my sub Hertz Nimbus platform. It is not exactly a big secret that damping of the top plate is important.

I have had many discussions with Michael Green of TuneLand and Michael Green Audio, who preaches a very similar message as yours, that vibrations should be allowed to flow freely in the system and the room and that isolation is either not possible or ineffective. Are you aware of Michael Green and are your methods similar to his?

cheers,

geoff kait

Hello folkfreak,

That information was provided by our newest member who is heavily involved with seismic sciences and I believe was posted by another company associate.

The studies of seismic activity are new to our company. When establishing our technical model we addressed limiting low frequency rumble via shear waves, reflective angles and relied more on the laws of gravity and motion regarding inaudible frequency.

We have always stated and agreed energy can and will travel up into the Sistrum Platform™ despite the geometry and material science, however with the majority of energy traveling down the conductor is greater the minute energy making its way upward would not affect sound quality and to the best of our knowledge it does not. The Sistrum Platform accepts and transfers energy from ‘all’ sources and is in a constant state of motion so we never became too concerned with regards to inaudible frequencies.  

The greater concern was airborne resonance. There is little known, written, studied or discussed as to the effects of airborne energy within the sound room and more importantly how it constantly  bombards component chassis and metal conduits via a wide range of frequencies both audible and inaudible.

Reviewing the industry from a racking manufacturer’s standpoint, information concerning the managing of airborne resonance is all but nonexistent but we have noticed a tremendous amount more information on the sub-harmonic factors. The immediate question was simply why? Adopting vibration management to musical reproduction systems and listening environments is all about airborne resonance.

Our belief is that airborne resonance has greater disruptive factors limiting component operational efficiency and definitely affecting room environments as the acoustic sciences will easily back this statement was the major concern in comparison to sub harmonics.

We do not know everything, who does? We have individuals involved in our company who provide information to us based on their engineering or science specialty. Example: If you want to discuss a snare drum stand which is a catch and hold type of resonance device or the effects of mechanical grounding a grand piano then I am your guy. I am not the person who would have the resource information you have requested so please bear with us as we should have something for you in short order.

Thank you for your patience,

Robert

Star Sound



Robert -- thanks for your response. I get what you are saying about Airborne resonance and am personally getting very good results with the Marigo Mystery Feet F8 Extreme to control this effect.

My main question was regarding the other issue that of ELF or lower vibrations from seismic, traffic and construction. Having seen the immediate and profound impact controlling this has on my speakers I was hoping to find a solution I could easily apply to my equipment stands. I guess I’ll have to explore some Townshend pods to replace the GrandPrix Apex footers under my Monaco stands and see if that helps

ps If you look at the Townshend materials you can quickly understand that the issue with ELF vibration is not the audibility of the seismic activity itself but on the effect it has on the relative geometry of the speaker/listener and stability of the speaker, so an indirect effect
answer, a lot . The impact of mounting my Magico Q3s on Townshend Seismic podia was profound. The quality of the bass response became much more natural, sounding exactly like the live unforced bass I heard in a concert just this last weekend

This link provides more background on the sources and effects of this insidious vibration, don't underestimate what it is doing to your system nor make the false assumption that because you are on a concrete slab a long way from a main road you are not still subject to the effect of micro earthquakes

I am familiar with the Townsend stuff.  There are no in situ measurements in that link per say.  It will be interesting to see what Starsound's new seismologist has to say about that topology. 
Try here for in-situ measurements, Townshend do the demo in place by jumping on the floor around the speakers

http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/townshend-audio-seismic-podium/

Hello folkfreak,

It appears you are heavily vested in vibration management and we honor you for that.

The only advice I can personally provide is stick with a single technology or methodology. If the Townshend products are providing you the greater satisfaction then shoot for replacing your current rack with one of theirs.

Modifying other designs, mixing and matching technologies, theorems and products related to vibration management usually does not end well or becomes never-ending particularly when it comes to your wallet; unless you are the type of listener who really enjoys ongoing experimentation and we also have respect for the hobbyists working through the discovery process.

Thanks for the uptick on the Townshend materials. Although in agreement with the philosophy behind their products and have little doubt they do provide a positive listening result, I do have a major problem with the testing methodology comparing a dollar’s worth of generic speaker spikes to a few thousand dollars worth of speaker stand. Add to that the methods of generating floor borne excitement via stomping on the floor and tapping on a speaker which does not usually take place within a listening environment has us a bit befuddled. This display is a strong sales and marketing tool but is too one sided with too many unknowns and variables to qualify or quantify as a meaningful scientific test. Would love to compare our Sistrum Rhythm Platforms™ which are direct coupled to the flooring in order to balance the financial outlays between the two devices but also see how the seismic reactions differ when our added mass and geometry come into play and of course hear the difference in sound performance.

Obviously I am not the best advisor when it comes to other products or combining techniques but we are definitely always up to personal auditions involving your equipment and listening room should you ever have the desire.

Hope this helps a bit,

Robert



I contacted EAR-USA regarding the cost for the Townshend  seismic podiums. I was quoted $4700 for my speakers.
ricred1,

What speaker system do you own?

Thanks in advance,

Robert
Star Sound
If you still own the Monitor Audio PL500 these have an absolutely ginormous footprint (20"x25") -- bigger than the biggest stock podium so the quote may be for a custom job

Likely the Seismic Isolation corners may work best for you -- two sets of 4 in Size C should be around $3400

http://www.analogueseduction.net/townshend/townshend-seismic-isolation-corners.html

These will fit neatly under the existing spikes of your PL500

You could also explore the bars -- I'm a bit ensure on sizing (size 2?) but if you can find ones that fit these should bring the price under $3000. 

I recommend analogueseduction -- they were very easy to work with, and as these items are custom built ordering from the UK will be just as quick as ordering from the US (maybe faster if they do not trans-ship)

Hello Geoff,

Agreed that damping a chassis will have an effect on the sonic outcome however it will also change the sonic of the component and in most cases change the original musical character of the product from what the designer or name brand is presenting.

Speaking as a racking manufacturer and not a component designer, our products cannot fine tune, harmonically change or voice each component individually as we are dealing with an industry of various products, each one being unique in their sonic offering.

Our goal was to represent all the name brands of equipment performance exactly as the innovator wanted them heard. The original presentation of the loudspeaker or component without altering their sound character was the ultimate challenge. By establishing and/or improving upon the operational efficiency of the component definitely delivers more sound quality of the product without altering the original harmonics. That specific engineering goal took over fifteen years to develop with concerns to the cello and upright bass endpins. Obviously if we altered the sound of the instrument the musician would become extremely angry and zero sales along with a poor reputation would exist among the all important music makers.

We chose to use materials where the damping factors within the specific steels and brasses delivered the right dynamic as not to alter the original voice of the component or loudspeaker. This is where geometry becomes the all important factor in any design, as you are aware, too much material of any kind even that of a quality brass or steel with sink the live dynamic in a heartbeat. Once the life of the music is over-damped, it never comes back.

I am sure you are aware the majority of electronic and loudspeaker manufacturers spend little if no time on understanding the mechanical sciences or vibration management technologies where the both of us are heavy participants. The one key item we do have in common is not one of science and that is until people physically experience what we do, no matter how many positive reviews that state racking and vibration management are important as any loudspeaker or amplifier choice, rapid expansion and discovery in our sector of the industry will be a tough go.

No comment on Mike Green.

Robert

Star Sound