emt 950, technics sp10 - direct drive sound


I write this e-mail on the back of albert proters posts on his technics sp 10 mark 3.

What does an emt 950 sound like - I am fixing one up right now - how does it compare with the technics?

Stefano Pasini (bless him) can find no faults at all - there again he does not say much else other than about the history f the deck.

Also what do the other good DD's sound like?

It would be useful to get feedback of people that have owned new and old decks.

Also if anyone with emt's are interested I'd like to start a thread relating to those decks - the restoration etc - becasue whilst there are sources about the emt - there are no guides on how to restore them - trust me I have searched and everyone says go to Hans Fabritius or Studiotechnik - which defeats the purpose of self-restoration

Lohan
lohanimal

Showing 6 responses by pindac

@lohanimal Excellent, the pursuit of new experiences has prevailed, it will be good to receive your report following the assessments undertaken of it in use.

In the time between the initial post and the new reveal, have you acquired any other TT/TT's to evaluate the refurbed EMT 950 against.  

@lohanimal I have been instrumental in having a rethink attended to for the TTS 8000 Spindle Bearing Bushes.

I have donated a TTS 8000 to support the investigations undertaken and enable dimensions to be taken for New Bush Sleeves to be used within the Bearing Housing.

These New Parts are made from Torlon.

A New Sump Plug is also produced for the Base of the Housing/Pressed Metal Bowl, that has a machining that enables a selection of Thrust Pads to be used, in my case Torlon again.

Another TTS 8000 Owner who has adopted these same methods, as well as extend on them, has also discovered a simple method to retain lubricant in the Pressed Metal Bowl. This has been in constant use with an oil lubricant since the method was discovered with no leaching of a thin lubricant occurring.

I have a selection of Bushes at hand, produced to suit one of my owned TTS 800's Bearing Housing Inner Wall and Spindle Diameters.

The Bushes when seated in the housing will require a Final Hand Ream with a Reamer Tool. 

If you would like to try this out let me know, I have a demonstration Instructional on fitting the Bushes from the Engineer who produced the Bushes, this can be sent to your email.

If satisfied with the info' on fitting and the interest still remains, I can send on a few Bushes to yourself.

What has been learnt through individual taking on this modification, is that in one case the Interference Fit Ball at the base of the Spindle had been discovered with a noticeable scribing to the surface. It is a reasonable easy fix and is worth checking for when the part is in hand. I have seen this condition reported on over the years on bearings being serviced on Long-Term usage TT's, it is aways worth a check, or request for a check, when a Bearing is being stripped down.    

    

@lohanimal I can assure you all evaluations reporting on improvements to be had, are subjective only, but in some cases on other Vintage TT Models.

I know individuals who have used a Stethoscope to compare the noise levels between Delrin Bushes and Delrin Thrust Pad, used in place of a Sintered Bronze Bush and Original Thrust Pad.

From discussions with others who have thought through the redesign of the inner of the Spindle Bearing Housing, I have been informed that if an Hydrodynamic Condition is present within the Housing the noise levels produced, will be different to separate, between most materials that are selected. I have even been informed of info' that has shown this from the Heyday of TT Production.   

The goal is to maintain the Hydrodynamic condition, which in many designs is not achievable, hence the Thermoplastics machined to a much-improved tolerance than an off the shelf Metal Bush Part, is an improved interface when Hydrodynamic Conditions are not able to be maintained.

The condition where parts that able to have a Metal/Metal contact is reduced substantially, even avoided, by the inclusion of a lubrication that is able to function as a separator with a film of Oil suspended in the spacing between the Spindle and Sacrificial Parts.

When a Steel Ball is used and is capable of coming into contact with the Spindle it is desirable to have these separated.

As stated previously Scoring has been discovered on a Ball belonging to various Turntable Designs, I know of one on the TTS 8000, and reports belonging to Idler Drives, and I have also seen VAS NY Inc having shown a scribed ball on a TT overhaul he was undertaking. 

My own observations have also seen gold micro dust deposited within the Spindle Housing belong to a Vintage DD TT. The Sintered Bronze Bush was suspected to have been worn, but the dust believed to be present resulting from the Sacrificial Material being removed through abrasion was more than was expected to be found. I know I am not alone in having this condition, but one of the 'not too many' that have investigated the condition of the internals of a Vintage TT Bearing Housing.

Numerous designs of TT have failed to achieve a method that ensures a long-term lubrication is maintained. There are numerous TT's from a particular period that would be a Better TT, if the basic needs of the Bearing Assembly were shown a special care for the servicing.

As Hydrodynamic Lubrication is very difficult to achieve in the long-term a regular servicing is a measure to keep things in good order.

A Metal/Non-Metal interface is seemingly working in the favour of the Bearing when an ideal lubrication condition cannot be maintained, it appears to be the better experience when compared to the older used design.

@lohanimal We share a crossover in interests, where a few extra TT's, readily available are the option, we also have encountered unwanted outcomes when acquiring the collection.

My second TTS 8000 arrived with a difference to the images I reviewed when I was deciding on the purchase, on arrival the Front Panels Hinge and Fascia had an impact damage. At the time, it was a little frustrating, as the TT was bought aesthetically acceptable, without too much concern for the rest, and the important deal maker was compromised. 

I own a Belt Drive TT, Idler Drive TT's and a Selection of Duplicate Model DD's, being Technics, Sony, Denon and Aurex. 

All the DD's are selected as Models that were seen as the Pro' or Consumer Pro' models from their Heyday.

These are duplicated for one reason only, to keep one in its original condition, albeit a Bearing Clean and Lubrication. The other to be put under the microscope and undergo modifications.

A modification can mean an Electrical Change is made, along with a Bearing Overhaul, as I have had carried out on a SP10 MkII, a Bearing Overhaul as I have had carried out on the TTS 8000.

The Aurex SR-510 has been Stripped Back, and I have seen where I would like to start discussions for this TT, it is a fledgling stage of the overhaul. 

The Denon DP-80 is yet to be fully stripped back, I have seen a proportion of the inners, but not got to the point of have the Bearing housing and parts in hand.

What is known from all the above and remains a Suspicion for the DP-80, is that all Bearing Housings are Arid Dry, with an indication that a Lubricant had been present at some point, this can be seen at a Thrust Pad, or sometimes a Black Tarnishing on a Spindle.

 I like yourself am fortunate to know of or have developed a friendship with individuals who are adept with making improvements to Vintage TT Designs. One friend in particular, who I depend on to assist with my interests, is recognised for their abilities within the UK and further afield. 

I don't go to individuals with a Timescale, I like to propose an idea, and they develop it at their leisure, I am not in a queue. I have even yielded my own work being undertaken as others with a same TT, have requested the Mod's being undertaken are done to their own as a priority. I am not without a means to replay music, so no beef at my end. I am now at a position where a friend I have been encouraging to take on a Kaneta Design is nearly complete, the time between the first seed planting to now, has evolved to a Kaneta with a New Platter Design, and able to incorporate other selection of Platters that are available, original, original modified and one being Phosphor Bronze. ' Ohh Happy Days '.  

I set limits for myself; I have a skillset cut off. I am happy to Log a Dismantle, Clean, Lubricate and Reassemble, but EE undertakings, and Re-engineering a Mechanical Interface is strictly for those with the desired appropriate skills.

When dismantling the assemblies, I witness small differences in interface materials used, usually the same role is required of the parts, but I also can't help surmising, it is these parts that are used to fine tune a sonic signature and further separates the Brands. It is strange how the Sintered Bronze and Thrust Pad interface is almost typical apart the minor dimension variation, but other parts that seem quite important in use are different in form and type. 

If a Hard Rubber Donut that seems to fail in the surmised function for it, was removed from its position and replaced with a material that worked for the surmised function and was a softer material or composition of materials, does this change the Sonic Signature and any colouration to the sonic the original part may/may not have been introducing. This is the area of investigation I may take on myself, as it is within my skillset, once all A/B Duplicate TT's are ready to be compared.   

When Modifications to certain criteria are in place, especially where a Bearing Housing is concerned, the Presentation for the overall Trilogy, TT > Tonearm > Cart' is without any doubts able to be perceived as much improved in performance. The Detail Retrieval from the recording, that is now a unadulterated signal getting through to the Speaker and Noticeably Audible is a very new offering from a familiar equipment and when perceived, has always proved to very attractive and wanted to be maintained.

I have always struggled to understand why there are in various forums, advocates of Vintage TT's, that stand by choices made and promote the idea to be considered with a vehemence. It also is difficult to understand why the subject of a Bearing Service or Bearing Overhaul is from certain forum members met with a counter argument to the idea.

Where the most difficulty comes in understanding is where a Vintage TT Owner can have it mounted on an extremely expensive Support Structure, and in use with a Tonearm > Cart' that can be £5000 ($6000) +. Where with this investment made, leaves them believing this is the method to achieve the best form their selection of Source Material and Downstream Components.       

The benefits to be had from working with a TT support structure is immense when working with a TT in the above condition. TT's without any care for the overall condition are in use with expensive Tonearms, it is not uncommon to see reports that certain methods of support structure have produced a TT that is a Keeper and preferred over other guises. This experience is exponential at surpassing any previous results when carrying out investigation of a Support Structure on a TT that has undergone Modifications to a certain criterion. 

I am not too familiar with what your EMT 950 is undergo as an overhaul, setting that to one side. Finding the ideal ancillaries to be utilised as a method for support of the EMT 950 is my suggestion to be looked into, once the Honeymoon period is over from its return. 

     

My Investigations over many years have led me into the thought process that not all, but many Cartridges have shared the same internal / external parts across Brands. It is not unusual to discover over more recent years where Third Party Retip/Rebuild Services are sharing their findings and affirming that many Brands are quite similar in choices made for the components to be used to assemble a Cart’.

The above is not limited to a Variety of Brands offering a Cart’ produced by a Third Party Manufacturer, that becomes badged with a Brand Name, it also extends to Models from a variety of Brands Models that are Marketed as the Upper end of their Catalogue.

As stated in other discussions on this same subject, there will if scrutinised in some cases be discovered, that other differences are included in a design, such a Body Material, Styli, Rake Angle and Coil Windings, etc.

Where the difficulty is found from my observations, is how Manufacturers using the ’reported on’ common shared parts, are seen to compete in a very similar area of the Market, with a very close matched pricing. It does look like a Cart’ offered into a certain segment of marketing, are carefully matched for a pricing across Brands, that falls into an area, that it is surmised to be Strategy belonging to Low Turnover - High Mark Up for the particular items.

None of the above have caused concerns to myself in recent years, as I don’t rely on ’off the shelf’ Cart’s to experience my Vinyl replays, being replayed to a level that is competitive with the upper ranges of Cart’s offered from the Competitive Brands.

I know for sure there will be a day in the not too distant, where my methods are harder to continue with and an ’off the shelf’ Cart’ is looking likely to be the only easy to obtain Viable option. Where maintaining a SQ to the standard being experienced within the System at present is kept.

If I am still in need of an Upper Range Cart’ when this time arrives, is an unknown. As a basic preparation and attempt to keep informed, I will keep one eye on the range of Models being rated and keep an irregular check on the reports from their users, across a range of forums.