With a push of a button it’s the 2.1 part of my 7.1.4 Atmos system I can use for both movies and music. Eversolo now streams my ripped 5.1 library replacing my oppo.
Now that's a good idea, I need to checkout the Eversolo.
Do NOT Blow Your Entire Budget on Two Channel Audio
Yes, two channel audio is here, and is not going away. However, object based audio is delightful, widely available on Tidal and Apple Music, and should be in the listening room of every music lover on the planet, not just "audiophiles. If you plan to be a music fan a year from now start building your object based audio system today. You will need:
1) A receiver/processor capable of Dolby Atmos.
2) A subscription to Tidal or Apple music.
3) A Firestick, ATV, or Nvidia Shield.
4) A minimum of 7 timber matched speakers and a subwoofer.
Once you experienced stereo would you ever go back to only mono? No, you would build a system capable of either mono or stereo. Now that object based audio has arrived do the same thing. Build a system capable of mono, stereo, AND object based audio. When Elton John heard Rocket Man in an object based format for the first time why did he demand to convert his entire catalog to Atmos? If you don’t know, then you need to go listen to Rocket Man in a good Atmos setup ASAP.
So, take your budget, DIVERSIFY, and get a good Atmos capable receiver or processor. Object based audio is NOT last decades surround sound or home theater. It is for MUSIC first, if you need a recommendation on how to allocate your budget feel free to post a question. Most importantly, you don’t NEED two systems, one for music and one for movies. A good object based audio system can play two channel music just fine. A two channel system on the other hand can’t play object based audio without a proper processor or receiver.
Greg Penny talks mixing Rocket Man in Atmos.
https://youtu.be/ggzfcUKDqdo?feature=shared
Showing 50 responses by kota1
How to get lossless Dolby Atmos Music: https://www.digitaltrends.com/home-theater/lossless-spatial-audio-dolby-atmos-music/ |
Frank Zappa "Over Night Sensation" lossless Dolby Atmos release is on pre-order, can't wait until it drops: https://www.zappa.com/over-nite-sensation/#/
|
Classical music was on an infrequent rotation in my listening room until I started listening in atmos. Some of the classical Atmos recordings were miked and mixed in such a way that you get an experience as if you are listening from the conductors position. Now I love it and symphonies are my favorite, it just conveys the experience in my room that is so different, even from a live concert, because you NEVER sit where the conductor is. Another scary good experience was listening to West Side Story soundtrack album. I didn’t see the most recent movie but the atmos mix on the soundtrack recording is unlike anything I ever heard in my room. Stephen Spielberg directed the movie and his finger prints are all over the creative team that worked on the album. Bringing together the best of both Broadway and Hollywood, the film’s creative team includes Kushner, who also served as an executive producer; Tony Award® winner Justin Peck, who choreographed the musical numbers in the film; renowned Los Angeles Philharmonic conductor and GRAMMY® Award winner Gustavo Dudamel, who helmed the recording of the iconic score; Academy Award®–nominated composer and conductor David Newman (“Anastasia”), who arranged the score; Tony Award®–winning composer Jeanine Tesori (“Fun Home,” “Thoroughly Modern Millie”), who supervised the cast on vocals; and GRAMMY®-nominated music supervisor Matt Sullivan (“Beauty and the Beast,” “Chicago,” “Hairspray”), who serves as executive music producer. The film is produced by Spielberg, p.g.a., Academy Award®–nominated producer Kristie Macosko Krieger, p.g.a., and Tony Award®–winning producer Kevin McCollum. Gustavo Dudamel—renowned music director of the Los Angeles Philharmonic, the National Youth Orchestra of Venezuela and the Paris Opéra—was engaged to conduct the orchestra for music recordings. The music was performed by the New York Philharmonic with additional music performed by the Los Angeles Philharmonic. David Newman, a celebrated arranger and conductor who has worked on more than 100 movies, handles both arrangements, as well as some conducting. Dudamel said, “‘West Side Story,’ for me, as for all of us in the music world, is part of my DNA. Every single melody in it is so natural and easy for anyone to process. Naturally, it felt right to work with the New York Philharmonic, Bernstein’s own orchestra, and have the musicians be part of the new chapter of this masterpiece.” The West Side Story Original Motion Picture Soundtrack |
Should? Really? You presume that a certain type of effect should be a high priority for listeners. Watch the video I link to in the OP, if it was a high enough priority for Elton John to convert his entire catalog to Atmos as a HIGH priority. I think every fan of music should have budget for both types of files, channel based and object based if they intend to use a streaming service. What type of object based system is highly personal: 1) headphone based or just use your current stereo to play object based audio over your existing two speakers (yes, backwards compatible). 2) Sound bar based 3) HTIB based 4) An upgrade of your existing system 5) A swing for the fences, I want what they heard in the studio approach.
|
I think the requirement for a pair (or four) ceiling speakers will be the deal-breaker for nearly all audiophiles. Interesting, you might be right. I think the deal-breaker for a lot of audiophiles is they got burned on the SACD format. What survived of the "SACD" has become DSD and while you can still buy SACD/DSD players and DAC’s the content is limited and expensive. As for the height channels that market is certainly savvy enough to perceive this more as an annoyance than a real obstacle. This is the crowd that can balance a turntable on an inner tube while drinking high priced scotch at the same time. Which leaves the rest of us, listening in either our living room or a dedicated music room. Good point, maybe something like "height channels" would be a solution? What percentage will install the Dolby Atmos ceiling speakers? You don’t need ceiling speakers to experience object based audio, its backward compatible. You can start with Atmos capable headphones and go from there. The point of my post was to allocate budget for an object based format. What a listener decides to allocate and how they choose to install a system is up to them. Congrats on having a 5.1 system, when that format first came out it was challenging too. Fewer still will tolerate moving the couch out into the middle of the room to accommodate 7.1 surround, and the required four side and rear speakers, and the required cabling. Moving the couch is free and sales of these types of systems is on the rise, see:
If you want to upgrade the ceiling speakers to timbre-match the others, you call the installer back to cut new holes? Fortunately, speaker manufacturers have created solutions that can be hung high on the wall with little installation hassle other then running the wires, see: https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/category/atmos/speakers/atmos-speakers/1.html Not to mention the discrepancy between the size of the existing 2-channel catalog vs Atmos remixes ... maybe 100,000 to one, or being generous, 10,000 to one? That’s what I thought 5 years ago. Now most people who like music are already streaming. This means the content is available and you don’t have to pay an additional fee, you are already getting it, you just have to figure out how to consume it. I love how much content is available, from all genres and there is like a flood of new content being dropped every month, have you noticed?
|
Historically ’good enough’ wins. True, my desktop system is "good enough" but if you look at the virtual systems here WOW, I guess we all have different standards of what "enough" is. For the "good enough" community you have Spotify, a phone and ear buds. Even this community can get a "good enough" upgrade by getting an apple music subscription and some air pods. Object Based is the opposite: very complicated, Again, exactly why I started this thread, to raise the veil and shine a light on how easy it is to consume the object based content many members already have access to via streaming. Are atmos capable processors more complicated than a turntable? Nope, I could not install a cartridge without some type of training either. |
Do you know where i can find a Dolby Atmos tube amp? :) If I had an unlimited budget and the appropriate space I would use tube based monoblocks for each channel....😎 One of our members does this in a SOA atmos system using these: https://allnicaudio.com/products-2/?ckattempt=2
|
It’s not gonna fly for many of us, IMO 100% true, I get that, but as you can tell, the content is already widely available so that isn’t an excuse. If you look at my system that would NOT be a fit for the majority of people, it’s setup more like a mix stage, I get it. My point is to allocate some budget to object based audio given it is so refreshing and becoming widely adopted by the artists and content producers, it may as well be enjoyed by as many people as possible. For people that already have a 5.1 system it is as simple as mounting some small speakers high on the wall in the front and back of the room.
|
A lot of the material is distributed in 5.1format and no ATMOS. First of all love the pics you posted and yes, I get it, channel based audio must sound fantastic on both systems. This takes me back to the OP, re: budget. When I bought a $50 Firestick that was 4K/Atmos capable recently with the wifi 6 upgrade I set a $50 expectation. Whoa! The ATV and the Shield are not capable of streaming hirez content, the firestick is. I think amazon loses money on the firestick like kodak lost money on cameras, to get you to buy the film. Martin Logan has atmos speakers on crutchfield you can audition for 60 days, might be worth checking out for the man cave: https://www.crutchfield.com/S-u8EmbKu42oo/p_839MAFX/MartinLogan-Motion-AFX.html or The Motion M10 mounted high on the wall near the ceiling: https://www.crutchfield.com/S-XrWvrG44H9e/p_839MP10GB/MartinLogan-Motion-MP10-Gloss-Black.html |
My dedicated 2ch system in a dedicated room is 10x the cost of the 5.1 Again, exactly why I started this thread, a question of budget. For someone with a large collection of software like LP’s, CD’s, blurays or SACD’s your setup makes perfect sense. For someone who streams their content maybe allocate some budget to try object based audio in the 5.1 channel room by making it a 5.1.4 channel room with a firestick and a tidal subscription? |
Shouting from the mountain top but no one is listening. 5.1 has given way to a sound bar. Atamos is to cumbersome for most. Have you heard atmos capable soundbars yet? They are an upgrade over the traditional one. If I lived in a condo and was on the fence about soundbars I would snap up this atmos capable system by sony for around $1K in a nanosecond: https://youtu.be/eHcjvdGbaa0?feature=shared
|
Back at you @kota1 . Maybe some will take heart. All you can do is educate Thanks, it goes back to my OP about budgeting. To put 100% into channel based audio as a consumer when the industry is moving away from channel based and toward object based is questionable in my view. I can tell by the responses in this thread that there remains a huge gap in not just implementation, but even understanding how to implement an object based system for MUSIC (not home theater). See producer Steve Wilsons comments about how the music industry pivoted to Atmos when Apple began offering spatial audio: |
Both two-channel audio and ATMOS create an illusion. It's perfectly fine to prefer one illusion to the other. The idea I am championing here is not to have to choose, it is to budget to have both. I prefer some mixes in stereo, some mixes in atmos. Generally the gap is quite large in terms of which I prefer, it isn't like just adding sugar to your coffee. |
Dolby Atmos at Abbey Road studio: "This is the closest I got to the feeling...its like one huge hug... so fricking cool...I never experienced music like that" Recording Artist Michael Kiwanuka https://youtu.be/JXFzcpmR_cw?feature=shared Experience the FUTURE of Music (thus the need to budget for it, OP) |
For the members here that are able check out Elton John's Diamonds in Atmos. Read more from his website here. Every track I have played is like visiting an old friend in person instead of just talking over the phone: https://www.eltonjohn.com/stories/eltons-75th-birthday-presents-diamonds-in-atmos
|
What I'd really like is a 7 channel system with all 7 speakers across the front, and recordings made with that in mind. Check out the photo of my virtual system, 5 speakers across the bed layer in front (L-C-R plus two wide channels) and 3 height channels (L+C+R). As for the mixes I agree, I don't like every mix in either format. I have found engineers/studios/labels that I like and are pretty consistent mixing for my taste in both formats
|
Honky Chateau by the way, should be in everyone’s EJ collection. +1 That album is like micro chipped in my brain. It started with the LP back in the day, then the CD. I have 4 concert bluerays of EJ which are all stunning Dolby Digital 5.1 mixes. Then you hear the atmos mix and it is like hearing it in a way that is more realistic than anything previously, totally unexpected to what the "microchip" is remembering. I just don’t get tired of playing it.
|
The speakers ‘disappear’ and ‘you are there’. Also, his processor takes away the need to hang room treatments everywhere, and agonize with speaker and sub setup. True, audio starts and ends with acoustics. The Martin Logan Forte steamer/amp your son got has room correction as well and hits way above expectations, nice size for a desktop setup too, hope he likes it! |
I can’t speak to worst vs best. When you stream music on Tidal you have choices ranging from hifi/44 khz (redbook), masters (MQA), Sony 360 (immersive) and Atmos (immersive). You can try every type of file and pick what you like. This thread is about budgeting your system so you can play ALL of them since you are paying for all of them regardless. Some people prefer the Beach Boys Pet Sounds in mono, that’s OK too.
|
Wow ! Looks like those over the age of 70 could care less about Dolby Atmos and are using every excuse in the book to justify their very expensive awesome sounding 2 channel. +1, and the anger that anyone else can enjoy something that is different than stereo (note, I didn’t say better than stereo, not going there). The "you only have 2 ears" BS is a tired and antiquated comment generally told by the "Geezers" in the room. Yep, these are "audio karens", they show up a lot in threads on cables or in any discussion about measurements too. For me it’s been multichannel madness since the 1st DVD-Video (and later Audio) discs came 25 years ago. 6 dedicated (albeit compressed) channels of full frequency audio. Amazing. I bought (and still keep) a lot of Rock Concert DVD’s. +1, I have been scooping up second hand concert DVD and Blurays on Amazon and local thrift shops at around $5 a pop. Ripped them to a NAS and playing back on a Zidoo multimedia box, fantastic. I often upmix the 5.1 DTS or DD soundtrack using the auro 3d or dolby surround upmixers.
Thanks for sharing the journey, the Bas-X amps are supposed to be awesome and yes, discs are always a step up from streaming. The BEST disc I own is the Kraftwerk concert. An Atmos disc AND you can also play it back in 3D. Absolutely the BEST experience, at the level of attending the concert without the crowds. See this review: https://www.whathifi.com/features/kraftwerk-3-d-catalogue-blu-ray-review |
The is no receiver even close imo vs a good dedicated 2 channel integrated amp or separates. I have not auditioned a flagship receiver and use a processor. I have a good two channel preamp/DAC in my system and can pivot to a pure two channel system. I get your comment though and the prices reflect that. A good 2 ch integrated from Anthem is around $5K and their 7 channel receivers are around $3K, that extra $2K is buying you something :). |
Coherence. I like my speakers to all sound pretty much the same. Great point, my Paradigm active speakers are heavy and I was able to mount the front height channels on tall stands and the rear height channels on some heavy duty wall mounts. But the VOG channel above the MLP was a problem. I called Paradigm and cutting holes in my ceiling was a non starter. They recommended the Cinema 100's as they were small and used the same type of tweeters as my other speakers. You can see the end result in the pics of my system.
|
I wish I would have videoed their attempts to egress the space. Too bad back in the day we didn't have smart phone videos for these moments. So, great post, you are obviously skilled both a consumer and as a dealer, both in 2 CH and HT. This brings the question, what is your favorite album/track in atmos music?
|
Wow!!! Stunning, love the room treatments, functional AND aesthetically pleasing. The seating looks great and those BHK amps must sound great, another member here had some maintenance issues. @donavabdear , how are your BHK's doing? You need to check out @fittebd room, seems like you guys have a similar taste. |
strange when I want to upgrade but can’t, I guess that’s a good problem. For the longest time I wanted a set of "high end" book shelf speakers for my office. Once I got my JBL’s it didn’t matter if something was "better" was out there, I just loved how they present the music, even though they were not JBL flagship monitors, so I kept them. Like you said, its a good problem. I get what you mean about overdoing absorption, it just sucks the life out of the room. Anthony Grimani recommends interleafing absorption with diffusion, it was an improvement in my room and his "recipe" is posted in the profile.
|
I guess the question is, do they sound compressed or worse than the equivalent two channel recordings. 99% of the atmos recordings I listen to sound more "real", in my room, with my setup. The 1% that don’t sound more real are generally from mixes that didn’t sound all too great in two channel either. The engineers today are moving past either/or and are mixing both simultaneously, see at least the first 5 minutes of this breakdown: https://youtu.be/0oQlHU6pBdI?feature=shared The question itself speaks to how one would spend their budget I saw the pics of your systems, nice, Modwright gear, tubes, nice stuff. You would likely want to start with a processor capable of atmos, not a receiver. You likely want to use the amps you already have, do you want specifics? |
Here is a good resource for lossless atmos albums. My favorite so far are Roger Waters The Wall and Kraftwerk 3D: The Catalogue. My favorite Atmos CD/Bluray is The Traveler by Kenny Wayne Shephard. The lossless discs sound great but in my system the Tidal streams sound great too.
|
what are people using as a front end? If you look at the sales numbers receivers are the most popular in general. The next higher tier would be separate processors with XLR outputs. If you want to fold a two channel preamp into a multi-channel system there are preamps with a home theater pass through feature. The benefits of a processor over a lot of two channel preamps is the room correction and easy integration of a subwoofer. The benefit of a two channel preamp over a processor is a direct signal path and reduced noise from the HDMI/video card. I budgeted $2K for a Marantz processor and $2K for a flagship DAC/preamp. My active speakers have toggle switches between the XLR balanced input (processor) and RCA input (preamp) so I used a "balanced" approach and it worked out fine. I could have easily dropped $5K on a processor and left out a dedicated 2 channel preamp/dac but I liked the $2K processor a lot so I just added the two channel preamp/DAC. If I were shopping today I would get this Marantz processor at the $2K sale price and drop another $2K on a 2CH preamp/dac with HT pass through. |
First, thanks for contributing to this thread and you hit on a lot of interesting points. Most hi-fi enthusiasts struggle to get 2-channel systems really dialed in. It is a "kaizen" experience, a continuous pursuit of perfection until you hit "good enough". One of the things I learned in this thread is for a lot of members, the stereo is preferred even over live music. Allocating virtually any budget across two channels will result in better sound quality than twelve See the first comment of yours above in italics., it almost makes it insurmountable, if two channels are a struggle twelve would be almost impossible. I agree and that takes it back to why I started this thread, how do you allocate budget so you can play the file of choice from your streaming service. Fortunately Dolby has standards that are easy to follow, I have a thread here that discusses setup in detail. I’ve seen zero evidence that most artists are adopting object-based audio. Well their are plenty of engineers posting about mixing (see youtube), plenty of studios posting about converting to Atmos (see mixonline) and as for content just pull it up on tidal, apple, or amazon music, its HUGE and growing every month. As for your point about the financial side of it I have a four letter reply, AAPL. When the elephant in the room buys into spatial audio do you want to just ignore it if you are a content producer? I posted a video in this thread by producer Steve Wilson who discusses this. I want to be supportive; however, I sincerely hope that all of the various object-based solutions for music will die as fast as they arrived. Point taken, better that even a good format goes away before you sink a ton of dough into it. Some people were bummed their $10K turntables were out of style in 1995, that turned around though right? The reason I took the risk is because unlike SACD or DVD-A I already had access to tons of content (that I liked, unlike SACD) and it was included without a markup, so I said, why not? Now, I already had a 9.1 HT so it was a chip shot, new processor and I added more speakers gradually. If I got an incremental cost effective improvement I kept going. Now I just smile a lot and hit my happy place. And don’t get me started on Dolby Atmos for headphones and soundbars. You know who turned me on to the headphones, a member here who I really respect. All because of a thread like this, you never know. |
Thanks for contributing to the thread. really liked your story of how you scored that nice cartridge for your TT @unreceivedogma If I were a vinyl enthusiast and wanted to have a pure analog, tube based, immersive setup I would add a Black Ice Audio F360 preamp. I have no "need" for it either, but after watching the Zeos review I find myself thinking more and more about folding it into the HT, or even my desktop system: The Black Ice F360 preamp review by Zeos: https://youtu.be/noe6GsyYDJc?feature=shared
|
You can always spend more than the budget I suggested above but you get the idea, it's more or less balanced between a 2 CH pre and HT processor. If you are more of a two channel guy tilt it that way, immersive guy tilt that way. If you are a one box guy look at this receiver. The new Sony receiver has been getting rave reviews and if I were getting a receiver for immersive audio would likely choose it. Here is a video about the Sony demo at a recent audio show: |
