Direct Drive vs. Idler Drive vs. Belt drive

@ferrari275 i think you’re quoting me, not neonknight :)

But you’re right, the idea is sandwich of materials(to block EMI effect if there is any or that none existing noise from the bearing that every DD hater mentioning here), not just heavy platter made from one material. Do you know anyone who keep using rubber mat on Technics ? I do not own SP10R, but i owned SP 10 mkII and Micro Seiki CU-500 mat is a perfect match, the platter of SP-10R is flat and slightly different on the edge. Brass alloy is cheaper than gunmetal. Copper is cheaper than gunmetal too, but this copper matt from artisan fidelity looks very nice.

I’m wondering how can you say anything about "sound" of the drive itself if you can’t put this different type of drives in the same turntable ?

Most likely you’re comparing completely different turntable, no only with different drive system and plinth, but also with different tonearms, platter, armboards and cartridges.

I know only one modern turntable with two optional drive system inside it (Friction or belt, two direct current DC motors) user can switch between them, this turntable is Reed 3C . And when you can change the drive in the SAME turntable then you can say which one is better for your ears.

WATCH THIS VIDEO

But how can you say which drive is beter if your turntables are different (not only the drive is different) ?

You can say which turntable you like, but not the drive alone. Because same drive system can be awful on another turntable.

@scar972 If you want both optional drive in one turntable buy Reed and decide what you like, this will be a fair comparison, the rest is just speculation.

P.S. I'm happy with top quality Japanese vintage Direct Drive like Denon DP-80, Luxman PD-444, Technics SP-10mkII, Victor TT-101 ... and i want to assure they are all amazing. Motor vibration or bearing noise ... it is all myth and fear coming from belt drive users. 

@terry9

@chakster

"Motor vibration or bearing noise ... it is all myth and fear coming from belt drive users."

No, it is demonstrable.

Please recall some of the best DD with such problem and describe us how can you hear it ?

I think i tried about 10 different Japanese DD turntables and i am not aware of this problem, i can’t hear it when i’m using nice DDs, i use thick Micro Seiki CU-180 and CU-500 gunmetal mats or at least SAEC SS-300 mats on all my direct drive turntables. Also a platter itself is very heavy on DD turntables like Technics SP-10mkII and Luxman PD-444. As neonknight mentioned above a lightweight platters like on Denon DP-80 are special (two layers) so also no problem. And Victor TT-101 platter is also lightweight, but no audible noise or vibrations coming from the motor.

Normally if i can’t detect (or can’t hear) a problem it does not exist for me. My cartridges are not sensitive for some reason, no matte LOMC or MM/MI.

I can’t blame any of my DD turntables using them with the best tonearms and cartridges (many of them).

Belt drive owners should stop scarring people, Direct Drive is an excellent choice today, especially top vintage Direct Drive turntables or brand new coreless Technics DDs.

Another interesting tidbit on patter mass comes to mind. When I bought my SP 10 MK II I was quite content with it. I came across a custom machined platter for it that weighed about twice the mass as the stock one, made of stainless steel as I recall. I ordered it and installed it. What I found is that the sound became smoother but was robbed of life. The table was fully capable of keeping accurate speed at the stock platter weight, and there was nothing of consequence to be gained from increasing it, matter of fact it was a step backwards. Perhaps platter mass does matter, but only within the context of what the designer envisions.

Why you did that ? You could just add Micro Seiki CU-500 gunmetal mat on top (perfectly matched). Here is mine. The weight of CU-500 is 2.7kg and it's 5mm thickness. That was huge upgrade for my stock SP-10 mkII.

When you're using not original parts, but some overkill superheavy custom platter why do you expect improvement ?  Technics platter is already heavy. 

I did different thing and it’s not just about mass, because the SP-10 MKII does not have additional layer of the different material on top surface of platter as mk 3 model so i just used Micro Seiku CU-500 to upgrade it.

As the result, the platter made from one material was decoupled by gunmetal mat (material with different properties and different resonance). This is more like upgrading mk2 model looking at next mk3 model. There was the reason why Technics decided to add another later on top of the platter. So i had a gunmetal between the platter and vinyl record.

I asked why you just replaced original platter, because every Technics platter is balanced and there is a stamp about it. I have no idea who made the platter you’ve been using, maybe it was a bad platter (i mean not as good as the original) ? Increasing mass on Technics platter with gunmetal mat was huge improvement, but maybe not just because we add mass. This is what i want to say.

And another example is Kodo The Beat turntable, based on Technics motor, look at the Kodo platter.

Also nearly all turntables from Artisan fidelity comes with their own copper mats on top. Even tweaked Technics MK3 or Garrard 301

Even if the platter replaced with thicker and heavier one those guys always add copper mat on top of it, just like the latest Technics SP-10R.

P.S. @neonknight I am interacting here not with you personally, but with audio subject that can be interesting for others. No matter who is right or wrong, it’s important to add some information and everyone can decide what he like more.

Apparently Pioneer also adopted a very tight control. I refrained from trying out the CU-180 (which took some discipline), but did try alternatives within the same weight range, like hard rubber, cork and leather (even a sandwich of the two). This was no improvement. Quite the opposite in fact, so I decided to stick to the standard mat.

Did you try Boston Audio or The Mat ? This is a lightweight mat (454g) if your turntable drive suffering from heavy gunmetal mats like Micro @edgewear

When i’m looking at my Denon DP-80 or Victor TT-101 i think it would be better with lightweight mats like SAEC or The Mat. Because the platter is lightweight.

When i look at my Luxman (made by Micro Seiki for Luxman) i know that i can use Micro Seiki CU-180 on it and this is what i do. The platter is thick and heavy. But CU-500 mat is definitely too heavy.

@terry9 

I have no source for graphite
As i can see The Mat is not pure graphite, it's different carbon graphite material, so the thickness is just 4mm and cheaper that previous versions made by Boston Audio. 

Another mat made from  extremely high grade of polycrystalline graphite
is OMA Graphite Mat  (6mm thickness), but i never tried this one myself, too expensive.    

@ferrari275 I will add more from the open sources if you’re interested:

Gunmetal, also known as Red Brass in the United States, is a type of Bronze — an alloy of Copper, Tin, and Zinc.

GUNMETAL is a type of bronze — an alloy of copper, tin and zinc. Proportions vary by source, but 88% copper, 8-10% tin and 2-4% zinc is an approximation. Gunmetal originally used chiefly for making guns!

** Micro CU-500 (2.7kg weight, 5mm thickness) is my favorite mat for Technics SP-10 mkII. I still have one in mint condition, but can’t use it on any of my turntables, simply too heavy for most of them. However, i’m happy to use Micro ST-20 gunmetal clamp on all my turntables. These two devices supposed to work together just fine. On my turntables Micro CU-180 (1.8kg weight, 3mm thickness) is what i like the most with ST-10 or ST-20 disc stabilizers. Gunmetal ST-20 simply became my favorite, it’s lighter than ST-20 and works like a clamp (if needed), not just weight.

 I own a Gunmetal Copper Micro Seiki CU-180 which I have compared to the Artisan Fidelity pure Copper Universal platter mat which I use sometimes on the Kuzma Xl DC, and they are similar, but the later can give some recordings a touch more weight and "body" if you will, to the sound. My thoughts here are it may be because gunmetal contains 88% Copper, 10% Zinc and 2% Zinc (est.) while the pure Copper mat does not contain the additional metal alloys.  

It's nice that you compared them, very interesting. 
I think CU-500 is better than CU-180, would be nice to read about A/B test of Gunmetal CU-500 and Artisan Fidelity Copper Mat.

@edgewear It's funny because on my original box from CU-180 i have a nice sticker on the right corner: "MICRO GOLD DISC CU-180" 

Like Voyager Golden Disc ?

Look at two different samples of CU-180 

On the right sample the grooves are deeper, both samples are originals. 
Even diameter can be different within +/- 0.2 mm as stated in the manual. 

@edgewear i don’t have a golden ear to detect any difference in sound between gunmental and copper, but from my two Micro CU-180 only one sample can fit into by Luxman platter because of this +/- 0.2 mm tolerance in diameter between the samples (color also different).

Regarding Copper versus Gunmetal you can read item description from the experienced Japanese sellers like Otomon here:

" This is a precision machined, Copper mat that offers an optimal platform for vinyl records. This was manufactured from special Gunmetal which was research and developed by Micro Seiki. It cut off vibration from outside and make sound more clear and better low frequency. "

And here is Gunmetal platter from the same seller. To my eyes they’re identical in color while the Astisan Fidelity pure copper mat looks different in color.

Anyway, i'm sure they are all good. 

According to chakster the micro ridge stylus is ’’essential’’
while our eloquent member from Australia was so impressed
with his Sony XL 88 D that he declared the precious to be the
best ever (in his) collection. He ascribed this ’’quality’’ to the
(diamond) cantilever but the case is that this cart has elliptical
stylus. Aluminum cantilevers? Are you joking ? Never heard about
beryllium or ,at least, boron or ruby cantilevers ? But the same
person ’’confessed’’ that among his darlings belong FR-7 fz as
well Takeda’s Miyabi. Both with aluminum cantilevers.
Such, according to modern logic inconsistent statements, can be
found in nearly each thread. That is the ’’connection’’.

Very interesting, indeed @nandric

One of the simplest stylus (Elliptical on one of the most exotic cantilever (Diamond, gemstone cantilever) - this is SONY

On the other side is pretty simple Aluminum cantilever with advanced stylus tip such as Refined Contact (on FR-7fz) and PH Semi Line Contact tip (on Miyabi MCA).

What we have here is an extreme on both ends:

1) better cantilever, but simplest diamond
2) better diamonds, but simplest cantilever

But both cartridges as LOMC, so we have something in common here. But at the same time we’re comparing apples to oranges, because those cartridges are different and designed by different people with different concept in mind.

I think people who love to "upgrade" their LOMC with help of some re-tippers could change cantilever on FR or Miyabi, they could also change stylus tip on SONY.

What i can do with my MM cartridges like my favorite Grace LEVEL II or f14 is to swap all kind of original styli designed with different cantilevers and diamons by Grace in the 80’s

I can compare simples and advanced design on the same cartridge body as LEVEL II LC-OFC , i could add nearly all combinations in existence such as Aluminum/Elliptical, Aluminum/LineContact, Aluminum/MicroRidge or Ruby/Elliptical, Sapphire/Elliptical or BoronPipe/MicroRidge .... also some great styli with Beryllium and even with Ceramic cantilevers with stylus tip i can’t describe accurately, because i’m not sure. But all these coming from one manufacturer for one particular MM cartridge model (Grace LEVEL II). This is wonderful for our own research and testing at home, isn’t it ?

P.S. sorry guys for off-topic, it was just the answer

This is of course nonsense. Developed around 1980 the Sony XL88D had a "super elliptical" stylus profile.

@dover
Good point, because advanced cartridge design should not be mated with conventional elliptical stylus, i don’t own 88D, never tried.

Super Elliptical ot Hyper Elliptical is what i have on various cartridges including SONY XL50 MM (on boron pipe cantilever), there was XL70 MM that someone selling on ebay now. Super Elliptical stylus as you can see, same profile as on 88D, good to know.

How would you describe Super Elliptical, it’s LineContact i believe (not MR) ?

By the way the diamond cantilever and stylus on the XL88D are cut from one piece - it is not possible to retip as suggested.

Right, nice to look at (in the display case). When diamond is worn it’s gone (or cut and glue, retippers normally breaking the rules).

One thing I have found in common with all of the popular British TT is the constant need for upgrades.

There are dozens of threads on the audio forums with folks constantly talking about upgrading the popular Rega tables. Did you know that if you upgrade the stock belt that comes on the Rega table to the better white belt that they sell it helps regulate the speed better! Than put it the F*** on from the factory! Or the stock power supply that comes with the table is so weak it won't hold proper speed so you really need to buy an upgraded $400.00 power supply from them!

Oh, throw away the stock plastic sub platter because it sucks and upgrade to the aluminum one that they make for the upgraded model. Than they want you to purchase a new platter to use on your new sub platter. It never ends.

A couple of different post about sagging plinths on the Rega Planar 6, seems the foam core plinth doesn't always hold up well. Even the better Rega models don't have adjustable VTA, you need to stay with Rega carts or start shimming.

And the owners will defend Rega all the way to their next upgrade with glee.

It's the Rega Merry-Go-Round.

Oh, by the way, Linn just came out with ANOTHER new spindle bearing! Yup, all the Linn owners are busy buzzing about it.

So I just play my rock steady, Japanese, speed stable, fully adjustable, dependable JVC QL-A7 DD turntable that I purchased for less than a Rega P3 and enjoy the music.

BillWojo

This is a great post, i could not explain better than this.

I'm wondering why people still buying those belt drive turntables like Rega and then post question about their weakness every week on audiogon? 

Direct Drive available NEW or USED for less money and they are so much better. 

Own 2 technics SL-1200mk2’s

best TT ever built!

And this is only an entry level into SL1200 series, i also have a pair of Sl1210 mkII for more than 20 years, fully upgraded in the last 7 years, not in the main system, but it was my first adult turntable :) 

The next level for me was this SP-10 mkII in teak wood plinth with Reed 3p tonearm and Glanz 61 MF cartridge. 

And not so long ago Technics returned with new turntables, different models with prices from $899 to $4000 in SL1200 series. 

I just don't understand why people are so brainwashed with those rega and related belt drives. 

He liked Yamaha the most and EMT the second.
But, to his taste: L-07D and SP10mk2 sound too sterile.

to say something like that a person have to use the same tonearm and cartridge on all turntables and compare them with the same phono stage in the same system. 

@elexberger

My friend I talked about have a huge experience. Actually he is the most famost vintage audio intusiast in Israel. So I trust his opinion.

I enjoyed my stay in Israel last autumn, i’ve seen great sound systems and nice setups. Audiophile scene is pretty strong in Israel as far as i know. Why your friend is not on audiogon yet ? :))

One my friend had in his system:Kenwood L-07D, EMT 948, Technics SP10mk2, Yamaha GT-2000. He liked Yamaha the most and EMT the second. But, to his taste: L-07D and SP10mk2 sound too sterile.

Anyway, when someone telling us "this turntable is sterile" compared to others it’s very important to understand why.

As you mentioned he has L-07D which comes with it’s own tonearm made by Micro Seiki.

Yamaha GT-2000 comes with it’s own Yamaha tonearm, not very popular tonearm by the way.

Those two turntables are for sale as complete units (with pre-mounted tonearms).

Technics SP-10 mkII is just a drive and available separately. I’ve tried at least 3 tonearms (Reed 3p "12, EPA-100 "10.5, Schick "12 ... on my ex SP-10 mkII and the sound with each tonearm was different. Do you understand what i mean ?

Not sure about EMT, but most likely it’s a complete unit with EMT own tonearm? Old ortofon or New Schick is also popular on EMT...

When your friend comparing L-07D (with Kenwood/MicroSeiki tonearm) to Yamaha (with Yamaha tonearm) he’s comparing complete units/turntables factory assembled. Even if the cartridge is the same, the combination of the cartridge and tonearm might change the sound.

When he’s using SP-10 mkII he could add almost any tonearm and the sound with each tonearm will be different. In this situation it’s not fair to say that Technics SP-10 mkII is sterile, because SP-10 mkII is just the drive, not a complete turntables. If he put together SP-10 mkII with some tonearm and plinth then the choice of the plinth and tonearm is critical (not to mention the most important part as a phono cartridge matched to the tonearm).

And all 4 turntables (Kenwood, Yamaha, EMT and Technics) are Direct Drive at least.

I’m not a typical audiophile and I don’t change equipment too often. I have been using EMT 948 since 2011 and I am not going to change it. The truth is, I could live with Lenco L78. It was a very nice, musical turntable.

This is why i’m trying to make it clear. Same with your Lenco, did you try EMA and Lenco with the same tonearm/cartridge ?

Because if someone comparing turntables there are a lot of combinations of the plinth, arms, carts, mats, feet etc. A fair comparison of the drive must be done with the same tonearm/cartridge on all turntables, when you will be able to "hear" the drive and comment about the drive itself.

The rest is just speculations.

In my own experience distinguishing between excellent turntables using the same cartridge is difficult and likely more dependent on my mood than any specific difference in performance.

true

Who exactly is trialling tts w the same carts? I can’t think of anyone trying out tts in a retail store and moving the same cart from one tt to the next.
That’s just so...70s-90s Lol.

Can’t remember when i was buying a turntable in retail store, probably in 1998 last time.

In the UK, I can count the dealers on one hand who can even fit a cart probably, let alone move it btwn rigs.

Is it possible to come with your own cartridge mounted on your own headshell ? Honestly i don’t care about dealers

Nope...today you just pick a tt and cart and hope for the best I think.

Exactly, normally you’re buying a Drive, Plinth, Tonearm, Headshell, Cartridge ... separately, assembling it yourself and comparing one turntable to another (if you have a few). It’s a part of the hobby, great fun!

I have more fun swapping tonearms and cartridges on my Luxman PD-444, because i think the turntable is perfect and it was designed for two tonearms with armboards that are so easy to adjust for any PS distance quickly. Clever design, very user friendly! Denon DP-80 is another story.

As you can see turntables are 40 years old, so no retail store needed to buy them online.

The greatest turntable of all time was belt drive with one motor. Everyone who owns a turntable needs to see this brilliant video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rgK0YMsJXM

"The greatest turntable of all time" ? Is it a joke or what ? 

chakster, no joke at all. You should review your audio history. The AR XA was a ground breaking turntable. Not only was it less expensive than everything else. It was also better performing and not by a little. It’s only over site was the lack of anti skate. It is in the Museum of Fine Art and one of the 10 best turntables of all time according to Absolute Sound.

Looks awful and as Ralph pointed in his post the tonearm is awful.

Watch the video and you will never look at an unsuspended turntable again.

In fact my Luxman PD-444 is suspended, for the rest of turntables in my arsenal (Denon DP-80, Victor TT-101) i have excellent AT-616 Pneumatic insulators under the plinth.

Room Rumble. Oracle , Basis , SME, SOTA, Techdas and others followed ARs advice.

Yeah, all those turntables that i don’t like for some reason.