T : Sorry, the correct product name is "Audio Intelligence Vinyl Solutions". |
Tshulba: Jim Pendleton, President of Osage Audio & Audio Intelligent Products reports Sheffield Lab Records , which weren't in paper sleeves, were probably treated with Last Preservative that is beginning to go bad.
He wrote , "Last is a polymer coating that is near impossible to remove without damage to the record ... it was not designed to wear off". Mr. Pendleton's products (nor are other fluids) designed to remove Last .
Todd, it appears we all have learned something from you even if Last can not be removed from that LP.
Perhaps as a place of last resort , contact the makers of "Last" to see if they know of a solution that none of us are awaire of. |
Ghosthouse : Thank you for your posting. Your comments in regard to bacteria are helpful.
It seems to me that microbes scour the LP grove better than most cleaners, although I have been assured their actions can be minicked by enzymes alone. Perhaps that is so, but bio-mediated cleaning (given all the pre-conditions you noted) is going to open a whole new set of options for cleaning LP groves.
I know of several Hi-Tech Companies here and abroad that are committed to the development of microbe-cleaners for home uses. Microbe-based technology isn't going to go away . Most likely we will find microbe-products in stores shortly . |
A conditional yes. My first home made RCM was a ultrasonic-based unit that was affective in removing debris from the groves. Water quality played an important role with that ultrasonic unit. With the unit turned on , the record grove acted like a radiator fin vibrating at high speed. Minerals in the water attracted to the outer edge of the groove caking the rim a with white powery substance. The stuff seemed to start building @ 1 1/2-2 minutes of on-time. A home-brew fluid corrected the problem. Shortly after that I discovered steam cleaning . That RCM and a few others I created just sit on shelves for now. The exception is a LP destatic/drying unit I worked on that does both in 10-15 sec. |
Hdm : My experience using live bacteria (that release enzymatics to assist digesting organics) , the results have been impressive for cleaning dirty used records. I also include a stage for record cleaning fluids & steaming that appears to improve upon the ultimate result. Note: I am told by the designers the bacteria I use are enviornmentally safe ; safe to us humans , our pets and the world-at-large.
What is interesting is that one class of the bacteria that I use are in a spore stage until hydrated. Perhaps, the bacteria's effectiveness could be related to the water source choosen for hydration. Perhaps, ultrapure may mate up well with those critters. |
Drubin : Contamination appears to begin with the quatity of the water. The "cleaner" the water the less contamination to the heating tank. I have received emails from "steamers" that remark they clean out the tanks with every useage. I try to use the cleanest water available and worry about the heating tank later. So far I have found never use tap water and be carefull to determine if the quality of water meets established standards. Short of all that I use a water product "Peak Battery Water" purchased @ Pep Boys Auto, Peak Battery Water that $ for $ seems to be a best buy. I am certian other cleaner sources exist but the cost far exceeds $3.@ Gal. |
O : Without a microscope its hard to make a good guess. My suspicions are some sort of "Last or Sound Guard-type" product or a pressing issue. If either is correct, the problem maybe beyond the limits of cleaning .
I have never done this but for a last resort,dishwasher liquids (which exact ones are the best I do not know) are said to be chocked full of man-made enzymes. Again,I do not know the ratio but a very small amount of dishwashing liquid to warm H2O,shake until disolved,then paint the liquid on the LP,let sit for 2 or 3 minutes,scrub,steam-rinse and a water-bath rinse. Dry w/ microcloth, air dry or RCM. Oilmanmojo, I haven't tried it but it "sounds" as if it may work on some grime but what you encountered I don't know for certian. I think the pressing may be at fault. |
Allvinyl: Thanks for the post. My interest in the 1200 is informational ; I know its 1200 watts, manufactured in Italy and uses a unique second tank. Not much to consider . Deep in the backbone of the thread I mentioned some experimention with a rinse that I painted on. My interest is more focused on design and durability. All the Best. |
Viper-z: I recently purchased a Gallon of Peak Battery Water only to find the water was fouled. I did not contacted the company; I suspect the contamination was caused by age of the product--too long on the shelf. In my case I strained the gook off (Too much effort) and used the Peak Water for a household steamer. I only hope our problems are not what we can expect in the future. |
J : Thank You. I reviewed the video. My concern is that the "show" is exactly that a show, no additional info other than what scantily they mention. What exactly do they doctument & is that informational ? For me, i'll wait until more facts present themselves in a Q&A section. Best to you. |
Allvinyl: Yes, I believe that moderate steam pressure is the key . Too strong a pinpoint, or too large a "footprint" as in garmet steamer is an invitation for trouble ( potential warping ). That's one of the reasons I continue to feel the Perfection is a best buy besides lo-cost. |
Readers: Please do not sub-scribe to the notion that Steam Cleaning will absolutely remove all the offense sounds on a certain recording. It can not. Those noises related to a poor pressing or other manufacturing defects are there to stay ; no matter what cleaning process you use. |
....And be awarie of false adds that claim more that any process under --- can produce. |
Cmk: Thanks for the positive feedback. A review of the Thread will reveal several methods of steam cleaning . I have held the Lp with a gloved hand , as well as steamed on the RCM. The results are always the same , a cleaner finished product. How far one goes with various steamers, record cleaning fluids and pure water all have an affect on the outcome but the outcome always leads to a more playable recording. All the Best |
FYI: Wal-Mart has sold the exact steamer as Mapleshade for $34.00 on the internet, delivery is free to the nearest store near you.
Maczurak: Earlier in this thread it has been outlined where to purchase the similar-type , cloths and DIY additives to be painted on the record but never put inside the heating chamber. The specific reasons have been outlined. There is nothing unacceptable in regard to giving Mapleshade $150 or you can DIY for less far less. As for all the hype on his special liquids , no problem spend the money or use alternatives. Its all up to you. All the best. |
FYI : Maple-You-Know-What sent me a message using my friends months ago , claiming intent to give full acknowledgement on the Web site. So far nothing...Perhaps I can make them an offer they can not refuse ... Now who said that ?? |
O: Many thanks for your post. |
Doak: Thank you, thank you : For years I have been wageing this battle and its not easy. Besides the invested few within the industry hating me, I have to deal with those that want to take advantage of the fact I am giving away this information for FREE. I don't ask for anything only your common sence and the hope I have given you more Audio Enjoyment. There is a point to this ... Back when audio started it was a community ... All the very best. |
Volleyguy: Thanks and "Never get Mad ... Get Steamed". All the best. Charlie |
Volleguy: That's the double edge to steam cleaning and cleaning in general; the damaged recordings "sound" better but the damage is sonically evident. It is apparent on LPs that had high cartridge weights 25+ years ago. My first Beatle records were played on a Garrard with a heavy plated tonearm @6gms+ cartridge weights. The damage is quite evident. |
No it is defective , please return to the Walgreens for a replacement. This happens sometimes. Remember, Never use tap water , chemicals in that water can clog the steamer. Any short cut with water should affect the outcome. |
I have been steaming for near a "deckade and 1/2" . The advice offered by AG'ers is the best I have viewed. Just keep in mind my Perfection works perfectly. A beautiful head of steam "tear shaped" without any attachments. The fewer the better attachments for reasons that become all too apparent ... splurts and drips. Keep this in mind ... nothing , nothing can clean Lps better than steam for cents on the dollar. All the best. |
Steamers: Keep in mind that using attachments may increase the chance of sputtering. I recommend not using any attachments. A re-read of the thread provides lots of free advice. |
Doak : Murray is one of the smartest/nicest persons in Audio and life in general. He is a unsung national treasure of music. The Goverment should create a Special Citizens Metal for him. |
No problem. As soon as I complete what on my plate, the Gems up... All the best. |
Morphy72: This whole warp thing has me in the dark . I have never lost an LP to cleaning. If it was trashed before its a lost cause. Gunged & goo'ed , they can come out like new. Soon I shall construct a "Gem" record cleaning stand , applying its use to steaming. Time will tell if its good or not. |
Water Matters : From the above posts it seems few have reviewed the Water posts of the last years. Just remember when ever you put H2O into a heating tank lots of chemical changes occurr ,and when you seen those little black specks chances are thats carbon. Lots of entry points for comtamination, by metal composition , air or water. Look at the debris of a fire -- What do you see Carbon and other junk.
I use Peak because its cheap , widely available and reasonably manufactured to remove most of what ails vinyl. The secret is in the rinse, the rinse cleans aways debris. That's where money matters. Again, Peak does a very good job. Should you want to spend more , go ahead no problem.
Dispite the beating I am taking in some Euro-Circles, use any record cleaning fluid you want. Sure , some have cleaning improvements over others , But Generally, they all work about the same. Use a RCM or not thats' your decision, the American Way , options. Cheers to all, especially Martina@GE. LOL |
Readers: For The Record : I invented Steam Cleaning years ago and started writing (ie. doctumention) in 1990's. My work was picked up by Mapleshade and without acknowledgement or royalities, they put together a package based inpart on my scientific work, selling it for $150. That's when "I tuned in" and stopped being passive.
I added my voice to this Thread changing Tigers musing from "Is this worth the money" to "How its done". And from there I have touched on a litany of audio improvements that work when applied as outlined.
Friends, as long as I am given acknowledgement of the invention of Steam Cleaning ,in any public forum , no problem. From now on, I expect my name and work to be acknowledged. Notice : Any intellectial thievery and under the current international standards I have a right to take action : The Law is with me (maybe). I engage in discussion for my pleasure and intend to give away my ideas ,whenever,for free, to those that appreciate Analog. We have been kicked around for $$$$$ too long already.
Mapleshade is Mapleshade, should anyone want to give them money : So be It. The application works. If any one wants to learn how to improve LP playback far greater than that what has been the standard for the past 3/4 Century (for free) : Welcome and stay tuned. The fun is only beginning.
FYI: I am head-first into a revival of Air Bearing Turntables (see Maplenoll Thread) : Cleaning records with bacteria , developing RCM's with pizos , air & brushes , as well as , air scrubbers for Geo Thermal Home Cooling/Heating applications . You know, the Good Green Earth Thing.
Generally, my work is based inpart on Greek, Roman, European/American 18th & 19th Century models including early Soviet engineering, using 21th Century "know-how" & materals . One GT system design costs me nothing build or operate w/ 85% effeciently. Thats less the cost of pipe and specific engineering for a home application. I plan to be nearly-off the Grid and lower my footprint soon , but my Amps stay. For reasons I really don't understand, my ideas work out of the box , period. The same goes for much of what I until sombody decides to ---- on me. Such is life.
How about this : Could I put the Geo-Thermal application(s) up for sale , by auction , on AG , with a reserve of 5 million Euros? Any takers ? Ok, I'll split P/P and AG costs. If you think I'm kidding put up the money .
The act of invention always been in the family; Grandad invented a door appliance that is used to open & close most everydoor in the world, just think of what thar's worth. He invented industrial applications, tweaked car building methods , earning $1000 x the weekly average in the Great Depression before his death to strep in '33. Sorry, Pop-Pop you should have been into Merk rather than Yellow Cab. My cousin, Steve, patiented a "green" side walk that cleans it self of ice & snow. So what does this have to do with Analog ? Well ...
Yes, Tiger started the Thread and I changed it as well as how LPs are cleaned forever. Its all the the genes ... So lets gets started... And when your on "You Tube" don't forget to mention me. All the Best. Charles Rehm (crem1), REHM UNLIMITED LLC, Cub Hill, MD . "Tomorrow Is One Idea Away" tm. |
Sunnyboy1956 : The very best in analog to you. Thanks for joining the revolution , tell your friends: With Steam (And A Good Rinse) Vinyl Rules ! |
Teskudia: Restart the Perfection making certian the top is secured. Should you hear that sound again unplug & return to the place of purchase for a replacement. |
Readers : As I have mentioned ; use what's available, only use no less than true distilled water.
My reasoning:
I recommend Peak Battery Water(now $2.99 a gallon @ PEP Boys): Its distilled, r/o'ed(was in the past) , de-mineraled and de-ionized for about $1.75 more than good commerical grade and a lot safer that supermarket distilled water. Very, very little of the stuff our water engineer friend mentioned to gunk/clog up the hand steamer.
As for my learning curve, it consists 25 years of "on & off" research on the subject of Steam Cleaning/Water related to Certification as the Specialist-In-Charge of Substance Abuse Detection for a the United States Courts Lab.
My work demanded perfection, nothing less was acceptable to the Courts. As the result, I learned by education and practice, all distilled waters are not alike. Much of the distilled water widely available fails purity standards for Labatory use. The only supermarket water my tech's used was to be mixed with pure bleach for cleaning purposes.
The first concern for all, safety ; heating tank explosions were common place from the 18th to the 20th Century when AC became the standard. God knows how many were mamed and died of scalding or explosion on the job. Remember Gentelmen, what we are holding in our hands , in its basic form ,is the same device just a little smaller... and of course safer. But how safe ? I want to keep the odds in our favor. Why? Murphy's Law is always present : Think Challenger.
Personally, I gave a lot of consideration to design factors before making the Perfection recommendation. However, one never knows if Unit A is so-much-more safer than Unit B since nearly all are manufactured over-seas where Murphy likes to sleez. As for me, I do safety checks on the steamers and did retire one (1) due to gunk. Since using Peak, the Perfection and SteamFast 227 have worked perfectly (to today).
The ultimate consideration ... Do what you believe is correct. All the best. |
Doak , I deeply thank you : Your/our well-being is more important than money. Maybe Pep Boys can deliver ? Or forward by US post . Please tell Pep Boys to examine to make certian the product is clean. I along with others got a batch that was old and infected with small growths. I screened them out and use it & my old steamer for household cleaning. Many thanks , Charlie |
Somewhere between yestersday and today, we are losing focus. Lots has already been doctumented on Water and Water Threads have outline the various water products , costs and potential advantages. Sorry, nothing that has not already been coverned in the our past posts.
Whats important is spend what you like , the degree of effectiveness over the recommended products , "real distilled water " and Peak Battery Water is questionable except as full rinses. Spend, spend and spend its your right. |
Tvad : I presume you are using the hose attachment. I recommend the Perfection devoid of all attachments : It produces a oblonged steam cloud I find to be very good at laying a base of pressured steam into the groves. I have been told that putting the allachments into a dishwashers' top tier for a quick wash with a short drying time (montored)reduces the "plastic smell" . The use of attachments does enhanse the possibility of splurts and splaches(condensation in hoses and attachments). All the best. |
Ok...So far ... But what of the chemicals creating the "smell"? Those chemicals are being leeched than deposited in small quanities on the LP. Do as you like , in 3 or 5 years should you find a brittleness in the steamed LPs be forwarned. I have been doing this work for far longer than anyone elese. To expect the same results the steaming must be duplicated . Your email has convinced me that I must produce a DVD and put a short spot on You Tube. Don't expect it tomorrow but soon. Its not my responsibilty to accept anothers judgement that could have far reaching conequences to their LP collection. Do you think I haven't applied Steam Cleaning with a hose and understood the potential consequences years ago. Say what you will, I am always looking in the tall grass not only for elephants but the mice... I worry about the repercussions before I recommend. All the best. |
I do this to assist the average audio-head. Anyone has the right to change/do anything they choose but accept the outcome(s), me included. Have any of you considered the amount of monies I gave away with this audio idea ... 6 figures at least . I publish for reasons other than money and have dozens of unpublished ideas better than whats in the marketplace. More later. I am a anlog/tube person. |
What is it ? Am I the only poster or is it an exaustion of ideas ?? Lots more to discuss .... If only with .... |
Question : Do any of you own a Monster 1200 , the steam cleaner blitz'ed on TV for $76 inc S/H ? If any do what is your personal experience with the 1200? Thanks |
Sonofjim, The Backstory : When I began steam cleaning, I eventually settled on the use of a Hot Shot 350A . The 350A had a revolving ball steaming tip about a 1" long. Devoid of attachments, it was very nifty and agile. Later, problems related to supermarket distilled water caused the Hot Shot 350A to become "spitty" and it was retired from LP cleaning. Note: I also had a few emails noting sputtering problems with the 350A, as well as, others that love the 350A that is no longer manufactured.
Later, came the Perfection Steam Cleaner. As a service to the steaming community (and in response to a email request), I sourced another steamer the Steamfast SF-227. I did so for those that wanted the exact steamer Mapleshade (MS) included in "Deep Cleaning" package ($150) that could be purchased from WalMart ,solo, over the net for about $34 bucks - Less MS's wipes and micro-cloths. MS also has a "rinser" they want you to place directly into the heating tank. According to the manufactures warnings and UL Labs putting anything other than water into a heating tank could be dangerious leading to potental damage/explosion. MS disagrees and mentions that on the MS Web Site. A "Better safe than Sorry" issue only the consumer can resolve.
Experimentation with the SF-227 found that steamer to be powerful; a special steam power I reserve for dirty second-hand finds. I feel the Perfection is "perfect" for almost all record cleaning needs, less the hose and all other attachments.
We must remember, we are using a product created for home-use that we are "adaptng" to our needs.
As for the 6" conical attachment, I suggest that with good pre-cleaning there is less reason for concern over mold release compounds than with the hoses. The 6" conical can be washed in the dishwasher (top tier) or by hand w/detergents , water rinses & a good wiping inside an out.
The hoses are a different matter. I find they "smell" even when repeatly used & cleaned for household chores. My concern revolves around the plastic compounds that give off the odor; we generally understand what they are ,but we do not know the long-term consequences(if any)to steam cleaning vinyl LPs. For that reason , I have reservations about "spraying" a record collection with steam comming out of a hose. "Better Safe than Sorry" kind of deal. No actual scientific fact of a problem just a bunch of ? that have yet to be resolved. Its the "who knows" part of the equation that springs red flags. I can't tell if its right or wrong , I just give you my reasoning and ultimately you the reader decides.
As for my method its detailed a couple of times over on the thread: I use gloved hands to manipulate the Lp in one hand and the steamer in the other. I also use a RCM and for years have recommended cleaning either with or without RCM's.
Soon, I will start experimenting with a "GEM-Type" LP stand. At least one other steamer has already built that stand-Good for you! I also intend to experiment with the 6" attachment(pre-cleaned) as you threaders appear convinced it works.
For label protectors , I recommend those circular jar openers that S&L's and Banks give-away at Community Fair Booths , as a protective label cover . They work for me.
S: Please relax ... Its all about the journey.
Thanks for your input. Posters like you make all the difference. |
To All: I dishwashed the 6" attachment that continues to feel slick to the touch. I will soak in detergent & water , rinse an dry to see if I can reduce that slick(press release compounds)ness. |
Tvad: Shooting down other people's ideas is not my view of a good time. I detest that. My only hope was that (perhaps) I was saving someone from a "Armor-All" moment including yours truly. With years more steaming time , I felt an obligation to give the best advice possible. Experimentation -- Go For It ! Steaming to the best of my knowledge has only improved a person's listening experimence. AND, thats a good thing. |
In my opinion, only once but that view has been challenged by a record fluid designer who believes the process should be repeated semi-annually. Changing the inner sleeve at the time of steam cleaning ,as well as, encasing the LP cover in a poly clear cover reduces potential contamination . Of course, the air quality/purity in the home does affect the outcome as well. In my case I 've made the decision to have my home intensely cleaned : "Environmental Purification"; carpet deep extraction cleaning & sanitzing, dry cleaned drapes, all duet work extracted of dust and a house electronic filter. Cost about $ 500 - $ 1,500. I'm sure many feel that "over-kill" but that's a personal choice. |
A second shout-out : Does anybody own a Monster 1200 Steam Cleaner? If so what has been your personal experience with the 1200 ? Thanks |
That's too good to pass up. I'll check with my local Walgreens (MD) tomorrow. |
Madfold : Welcome to the Club, please let us know of your results. |
I use circular jar openers , S&L and Bank give-aways. Work perfectly every time. |
For me it all depends on how rare a LP is as well as its age. I note that early LPs center lables were softer in texture and subject to finger marks; they water stain easily. Later, hard printed lables can take a little handeling and a drop or two of moisture. Recently, I located a 1952 (TOPS L-931) LP "Lena Horne Sings". When I steam a 56 year old LP , I cover the label. |
Stltrains: Personally I have never damaged a lp , no warping , no problems. I suspect that the LPs were already damaged. The Perfection is actually a "cool" steamer , not hot enought to cause warping. Other steamers can really leave a painful red burn mark on the skin but not the Perfection. |
Follow-up: I have the parts but no time yet to construct a "Gem-type" record cleaner. FYI, Michael Fremer did a review of a Merrill Gem (Stereophile 9/08) :) Fremer mentioned his GEM leaked water onto the record lables . I have an idea on how to resolve that problem.
This fall I plan to open a new thread on the results of specialized bacteria products I will be use to scour LP groves (hopefully) to a pristine condition. Its going to be a "Shoot-Out" of two bacteria products I selected that just might be the ultimate accessory for the fantic that demands perfection from LPs. I have posted before on bacteria . This time I will have a couple products on hand to compaire as a complement to Steam Cleaning.
One last mention, Mikey F. said he is to review a computer program to assist in turntable set-up, let's hope so for all of us. |
Friends, Buy them while they are available. |
