audiozenology
Cryogenic materials treatment involves little shock. You don’t dump it in liquid. It is a vapour exposure. It is not going to have a "sound". Copper conductivity is barely impacted and even if you caused some damage to the dielectrics, it would make 0 difference at audio frequencies. I would bet more cable to cable variation than cable to cryoed same cable change. >>>>>You say Hello, I say Goodbye! Take copious notes. |
Most of them do cryo their cables. Shhhh, don’t tell anybody. The rest must not have gotten the memo. Who knows?
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I didn’t know you were the jealous type. Live and learn. 🤗
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Hi, Michael, I’m giving you the benefit of twenty years of cryo experience. I was one of the early pioneers. Are you giving me a little jab 🥊 for my Ultra low mass portable system? Isn’t that a conflict of interest? 😀 Is my system even lower mass than the Michael Green standard? Total SONY Walkman/ Sony headphone system mass 1.5 lbs. Jealous?
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I find cryo generally provides more information, not less. Cryo improves the performance of all materials. There is no reason I can think of why cryo would degrade the sound of anything, with certain caveats. There is a waiting period for cryo, maybe several days, to let the CDs or LPs or tubes or whatever recover from thermal shock of cryo. During that time the sound can be quite bad sometimes. Also, avoid cryo that involves immersion in liquid nitrogen.
You can get quite good results using the home freezer, and you don’t have to wait a week or two to get your stuff back from the cryo lab.
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hemigreg
Yes copper purity is paramount to make a few microohms decrease-but you can get 1000 fold improvement by upping gauge one size. even the cheap cca cable will show no active degretation if SIZED and terminated according to NIST and JAN spec. there are many papers and govt research on this. so now theri decision is to Not use cryo conductors in and space program,neclear reactor,wepons system,life support equipt. so why would any "sound equipt" benefit unless things are under spect to start with. >>>Audiophiles don’t really care very much what the Government does, or NASA or the military or life support. We do whatever we like. We are the Clash! 🤗 Besides NASA employs cryogenics routinely for space missions, liquid nitrogen and BEYOND. Anyone interested in higher performance materials would use cryogenic treatment. We ain’t gonna be treated like trash We got one thing We are the Clash What? We are the Clash It’s like a patch You can strike that match! |
Nothin’ could be weirder than to see some geezer puttin’ LPs in his freezer.
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Ain’t nothin wrong with that action! Your freezer is effective, inexpensive, controllable and a whole lot quicker that sending stuff off to the cryo lab and waiting to get it back, which can take up to two weeks. 🔄 Another big plus ➕ is there’s no thermal shock involved with the home freezer. Nothin says lovin’ like something from the freezer! 🥶 There is always something in my freezer, CDs 💿 mostly, but also cassettes, cables, portable CD players, headphones 🎧 , etc.
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In space no one can eat ice cream, glubby. 👨🚀
For glubby twenty years was the time he spent in high school. Comedy is subjective, I know. |
Geez, even a tiny little fuse sounds better after cryo. Cut me some slack, Jack! We don’t need a doctorate dissertation to tell us cryo is good for any type of wire. Cryo makes things perform better. I wish I could tell you, gentle readers, how many things improve the sound after they’re cryo’d. Unfortunately, it gets into areas I fear are beyond scope and might be a little bit too much for the naive and those just starting out. 😳 I certainly don’t wish to frighten or snow anyone. None of this stuff is in books. Hel-loo! That’s why the -10 F home freezer is way more mysterious than - 300 cryogenics.
Don’t steal, don’t lift
Twenty years of schoolin’
And they put you on the day shift
Look out kid
They keep it all hid
Better jump down a manhole
Light yourself a candle
Don’t wear sandals
Try to avoid the scandals
Don’t want to be a bum
You better chew gum
The pump don’t work
’Cause the vandals took the handles
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Look right over your eyebrows.
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As the hillbilly said to the city slicker in Deliverance, you don’t know nothin. I don’t mean to pry but is your brain really the size of a pea?
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hemigreg
The electrical activity in copper when brought back to room temp will not be any better than with no treatment. ive done cross sections of copper/gold/silver/plat/irridium/plutonium/thorium/ etc in research for conductivity and transmission speed of the electron/hole pairs for semiconductor chip upgrades cause the time a Ghz signal enters a pc board to the time it hits the transistor junction in the processer does make a lag in the output. but that is only signifient in the GHZ freq range. totally silly effect in the khz and down. even high freq MRI magnets with cryo cooled power supplys are for the reason of lower resistance and no infulence in the resultant mri results- so if you think itsounds different its your $$ to waste. ive done it to liquid HE,H.O2, and colder.you may likely suffer more damage due to slip face kinda like embritlement in the lattice no matter how slow warmed up, the inital cold shock will offset the lattice a few minutes/deg. upsetting the outer 3-4 electrons orbit. yea. otherwise copper is ultra stabil electrically and mechanically. cryo for fe based elements is a totally different reason. >>>>Gee, that’s too bad. Must be mass hysteria or hypnosis. How else to explain all the many hundreds of thousands of cryod cables and fuses and vacuum tubes sold? Are all these cable companies that cryo their cables wasting their time and everybody else’s? Was NASA duped, too? OMG 😲 |
Put down the put down the glue, glubby!
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Glubson, try to pay attention. We’re taking about LIGO, not LEGO. By the way, shouldn’t you be outside riding your horsey? 🐴 |
LIGO uses cryo. Glubson uses glue. 🤪
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atdavid, you seem a little sluggish this morning. Did you forget to take your Smart Pill? Can I suggest a reading comprehension refresher? I hate to be so judgmental with newbees but this discussion is turning into a Rope-a-Dope. Float like a butterfly 🦋 sting like a bee 🐝 Funny, huh? Yes, I realize comedy is subjective. 🤡
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I said LIGO uses cryogenics. Don't get your bowels in an uproar or put words in my mouth. I just had breakfast. |
I am pretty sure they decided to call it Voodoo Cable to get the goat of pinheads. |
Oh, come on, all you negative Nellies, don’t be such a stick in the mud. 💩 Faint heart ne’er won fair maiden. Advanced audiophiles have been using cryogenics for twenty-five years. No big deal. Remember the Little Train that Could, “I think I can, I think I can, I think I can.” 🚂 Toot! Toot! And if you’re still too suspicious about cryo, remember, the home freezer is very effective for improving the sound, as I’ve been posting of late. Home freezing eliminates obsessive worry about micro fractures. 😩 Or maybe go to CRYOCONNECT.COM for Cryogenic Cables & Harnesses For Ground Based & Space Applications. Did LIGO use cryo? Bet they did. Audio Cable companies using cryogenics, this list is not intended to be all inclusive. Purist Audio since 1995 AntiCables Furutech Stealth VH Audio Snake River Audio Jena Labs Audio Sensibility Ultimate Cables Shunyata Revelation Audio Labs JW Audio Townsend Audio Voodoo Cable Museatex Blue Marble Audio Cables Silversmith Audio Neotech Reference 3A Meitner (EMM) Cables Darwin Cables Silent Source CryoClear CryoParts Connex Audio |
Actually, Jay Jay, AudioQuest’s explanation is absurd. It sounds like something you would say. Oh, well, nobody is expected to be great at everything.
Advice to all AudioQuest users - send cables off to the cryo lab immediately if not sooner! I cryo’d my AudioQuest Truth interconnects and they were far better after cryo.
“This is an old technology that has proven itself for certain metals when utilized in certain conditions (it’s standard in high-performance race engines). Unfortunately, its efficacy for audio products is inconsistent. We have found that many have over-used this and many other popular modifications and treatments. The idea that, “if it works here, certainly it will work everywhere,” is simply not true. In fact, this treatment can seriously damage many materials such as the polymers used in many audio, video, digital, and filtering components. Cryogenic treatment is typically -300° Fahrenheit, and, in a way, is the reciprocal of high heat (flame forging). Either technique could help a knife, but would you subject a piece of plastic or polymer to a flame? Cryo is no better.”
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Whoa! I’m iGeoff?! No, I prefer to think of myself as 👁 Geoff.
Oh, I’ve been meaning to ask you, is it true that when you lie your pants really are on fire? 👖 🔥
As a kid I told people I was going to be a comedian and they all laughed at me. Well, noone’s laughing now! |
atdavid
While repeating the same thing over and over again may make it true on an internet forum, for at least a few people, it does not change reality geoff. >>>>>Exactly! Then why are YOU repeating the same thing over and over? I did not create reality. I keep telling you. To discover the real reality you must look 👀 deeper, grasshopper! 🦗 |
So not only are you lying but you're going to start using my jokes, too? |
atdavid
If you cannot collect your thoughts before attempting to put them down into words, maybe it is the thoughts that are at issue? Pseudo science is making claims, that you are not able to back up with anything approaching typical standards for evidence, then claiming everyone who disagrees with you is lying, stubborn, "does not understand", etc., and yet never actually addressing any argument presented against your case. >>>>You must be looking in the mirror. Those are actually YOUR tactics, not mine. You just quoted yourself! Besides, it’s not true I haven’t addressed your arguments. You either haven’t been paying attention or are straight up lying. Standards for evidence. What on earth are you going on about? Do you really think this is some sort of peer review forum for Scientific American? Or a court of law? And who is going to be the arbiter of evidence and facts - you? Get real! Three hallmarks of the scientific method are curiosity observation and investigation. You are missing all three, Mr. Smarty Pants 👖 I reserve the right to edit my posts, it’s the protocol here. There is a fluid situation on the ground and I have many reasons why I might wish to edit a post within the allotted time. What you want or demand doesn’t actually count. |
That wasn’t a dogmatic, silly. It was a Rolodex.
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Quotes from 12 Angry Men 😡 😡 😡 😡 Juror #12: Oh, come on. Nobody can know a thing like that. This isn’t an exact science. Juror #2: You said we could throw out all the other evidence! Juror #8: Prejudice always obscures the truth. Juror #8: Nobody has to prove otherwise. The burden of proof is on the prosecution. The defendant doesn’t even have to open his mouth. Juror #7: I don’t know about the rest of ’em but I’m gettin’ a little tired of this yakity-yack and back-and-forth, it’s gettin’ us nowhere. So I guess *I’ll* have to break it up; I change my vote to "not guilty." 🤡 |
I totally forgot about double blind tests. I must have spaced out. 👨🚀
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You can’t PROVE it! Hey, this is right outa 12 Angry Men, folks. You cannot make this stuff up! Somebody is channeling juror #3. 😡
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Rule number 1 - never get into a technical discussion with an English major. It will only end in a train wreck.
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“Seeing with humility, curiosity and fresh eyes was once the main point of science. But today it is often a different story. As the scientific enterprise has been bent toward exploitation, institutionalization, hyper-specialization and new orthodoxy, it has increasingly preoccupied itself with disconnected facts in a psychological, social and ecological vacuum. So disconnected has official science become from the greater scheme of things, that it tends to deny or disregard entire domains of reality and to satisfy itself with reducing all of life and consciousness to a dead physics.”
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Engineering is hard science. Make no mistake about it.
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You say not gullible, I say pseudo scientist. You’re also stubborn for not letting me finish editing my posts. That’s rude, dude! |
atdavid, be advised I have 30 minutes to edit my posts. I sometimes take all 30. It would be wise to wait the customary 30 minutes before responding. That way there won’t be any misunderstanding. Besides, your recent spate of responses has taken the tone of a stubborn pseudo-skeptic. Are aren’t the first cowboy to come down the pike slapping your EE 301 book on your knee. Furthermore, it’s not proper protocol for newcomers to question the experience of forum members. I have been cryoing and freezing since you were wearing white socks.
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Sorry if I’m being too harsh but that last post is mostly pure speculation. The history of cryogenics for audio is long and colorful and well documented. There’s no reason to be so skeptical and reactionary. Heck, I broke three Laws of Physics today already and it’s not even lunchtime.
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millercarbon
Cryo is nothing more than a chest freezer into which goes everything from tubes to cables to crankshafts, custom hunting knives and French Horns. The expense is all in cooling mass to near absolute zero, something that happens only slowly over a period of days immersed in liquid nitrogen. Then after a few days the nitrogen is allowed to boil off and the whole thing comes back to room temp.
This is the reality of cryo. Anyone touting anything even slightly different than this is either lying or clueless because, get this, physics is physics. Its only at the extreme low temp of cryo that the molecular changes happen, and there just ain’t nothing more to it than that.
>>>>>OK, REALITY CHECK. Liquid Nitrogen cryo is -300 F. Absolute zero is -460 F. So, in REALITY the standard cryo treatment is not anywhere near absolute zero. Hydrogen cryo is much closer to absolute zero but not commonly used. Also standard cryo treatment doesn’t not (rpt not) involve immersion in liquid nitrogen, which would cause thermal shock. The treatment involves only immersion in the vapor. Even with the two day staged cryo process there is temporary but non-permanent thermal shock that is audible when you first receive the goods. So, waiting several days is required until the cryogenic treatment shockmgors away. Third, as I’ve outlined on these fora previously, home freezer temps of circa -10 F are sufficient to produce very good results for all manner of audiophile stuff, from CDs to cables, to CD players to amplifiers to fuses to speaker drivers, LPs, there is almost no end to it.
Costs vary from Cryo Labs but mostly likely actual costs are between 10 and 15 dollar per pound, and there is probably a minimum charge as well. Plus theee is the cost of shipping both ways which for me, shipping a five pound box of Mercury’s to the lab is about 30 or 40 bucks including insurance.
Home freezer treatment is FREE 🤗 and avoids the one to two week delay of cryo lab. And avoids the expense of cryo lab. Lastly, since permanent molecular changes probably don’t occur for home freezer treatment one can safely assume that cold treatment of audio items does not (rpt not) involve the more homogeneous physical atomic changes wrought by minus 300 degree cryo. Something else is going on as yet unexplained.
Geoff Kait, Machina Dynamica, first in liquid Nitrogen cryo, first in home freezer cryo, first in the hearts of his countrymen. 🥶
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Nice to see Mr. Know-it-All has a sense of humor, even tho not that original. School. My mom told me I had to study hard so I can get a good job. No, ma, I don’t! I’m going to be a comedian. 🤡
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In that case is there any sand?
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Shouldn’t you be outside riding your little horsey? 🐴
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Did you perform a controlled double blind test? It’s generally two weeks from the time you send a musical instrument off to the cryo lab and get it back AND let it settle down from the cryo treatment shock for at least a few days. Plus, your aural memory must be outstanding to remember how the instrument sounded more than two weeks previous.
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I’m sending the entire 52 CD box set of Mercury Living Presence CDs off to the cryo lab as we speak. Gee, I hope the polycarbonate layers don’t get all brittle and break into little pieces. Or Explode! 😛
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“If I could explain it to the average Joe Blow they would not have given me the Nobel prize.”
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They laughed at Bozo the Clown, too. He who laughs last laughs best. 🤡 Good luck with your Google searches. That’s the next best thing to cutting and pasting from Wikipedia. |
Oh, are you looking in the mirror? When I was a kid and told people I was going to be a comedian they all laughed at me. Well, noone’s laughing now! 🤡
I respect you ability to cut and paste from Wikipedia. 😬
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Another fly! That’s lunch right there! No McDonalds for me today! I hate to judge before all the facts are in but this fly appears to be one of them Wiki skeptics. 😛
It seems highly unlikely that any harm can come to audio cables during or after cryogenic treatment since most high end cable manufacturers with any sense cryo their cables and many audiophiles send their cables into the lab for cryo. In fact, you must cryo your cables if you want to compete on the world stage. Better safe 🤗than sorry. 😢 |
Wow! Looks like there’s a fly in my spider web already! Breakfast! 🤗
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Cryogenically treating anything improves its performance. And someone recently posted, even putting cables in the home freezer for 48 hours offers a very noticeable improvement.
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