evo: there is a wealth of knowledge available about cryogenic treatment of cables on this and other sites. for a starter, you might goto:
in the "text to find" box, type in "cryogenic." i'm sure you'll find something of interest.
Are you planning to cut some material with them? Cryogenic treatment is very expensive. It is used to bring metals to ambient temperature over a very gradual time span after tempering. This period could last sometimes weeks. The purpose is twofold: to keep the crystal lattice in the intended spatial arrangement and to avoid corrosion caused by tempering with salt. As an example, some high performance industrial knifes and other precision cutting tools (such as Japanese hairsculpting scissors) are now being cryogenically tempered.
It's a great buzzphrase for marketing!
Voodoo once more...
So no one can give me a sonic description of before and after.
I know what the process does, but what effect does it have on the cable sonically.
It doesn't cost very much to do cables. I bet you could get a dozen interconnects done for under $30. I talked to a place here in town (cedar rapids, iowa) about doing some parts for my drag bike. While I was there I asked him if he'd ever done any cables, he just looked at me kinda funny and said "I've never done that before, what's it supposed to do?" I told him what i've read about treating cables and he said to bring them in sometime and he'll run them thru the treatment for free if i'll give him feedback as to how well it worked. I haven't gotten around todoing it yet but when I do i'll be sure to let you guys know.
While I haven't had ANYTHING Cryo-treated myself, I have noticed an alarmingly significant increase in the number of "cryo-treated" used cables for sale on Audiogon - but were not advertised as such.
While there are many folks who suggest that cryo treating cables is the best thing since sliced bread, I would presume that most of us who buy used cables often, would like to know the truth behind the history of the cables.
From what I have read, CT works well on some items - but can destroy others.
For those who read this - please remember to ask the seller before buying used cables (and other components) whether or not the item for sale has been treated. I'm sure you do not want be the sucker who spends hard earned cash for someone else's scientific experiment. As far as I am concerned, if a used cable has been cryo-treated, it is worthless on the regular used market.
For those of you who brave enough to have cryo treatments done, here is the name and number of a source.
CyroPro (888)300-2356 talk to Dave - I believe they charge 10 bucks a pound for the service.
Stan Warren uses dry ice for all his mods and cables. He did tests with friends at a university in Oregon that had access to frozen nitrogen and they concluded dry ice is cold enough. So you can do it at home. If you call Stan Warren, I am sure he would tell you how he does it. His number is available on other threads.
I think it's Jena Labs which really bags on using Dry Ice as a means to cryo treat cables saying, "the effects are only temporary".
I seem to remember a post on Audiogon about someone who put cables in the freezer...they got moldy and crusty or something. Ick! And to his amazement, they also sounded terrible!!
Here is the statement made by Jena Labs regarding Dry Ice:
Several audio writers, equipment modifiers, and so-called technologists have promoted refrigeration of cables and electronic parts by packing in Dry Ice. This is NOT cryogenic treatment. It results in only minor and temporary improvement. Even gas bath refrigeration in a cold furnace cooled by LN2 will not provide a sufficient chill. Scientifically speaking, Cryogenics refer ONLY to temperatures at or below the vapor point on Nitrogen, -320.4° Fahrenheit. Our process involves temperatures that are substantially colder than this. Clearly, dry ice has nothing to do with Cryogenics. Only true Liquid Nitrogen Immersion, as employed by JENA LABS will fully and permanently enhance the musical behavior of metallic conductors.
Go read a metallurgy book, guys!
Bringing an industrial knife from (-320) degrees F over a period of two to three weeks to ambient temperature after being tempered is NOT cheap.
And stop listening to cables, will you? It's a new year!
from what i gather, you could get all the benefits of cryo via an extensive break-in w/ a specialized device (a MOBIE, for ex).
cryo is NOT simple. you cannot just drop your wires into liquid N and expect them to emerge better---proper treatment required gradual reduction & increase in temp over a long period of time (a few days ideally). a real cryo shop will know how to (see Controlled thermal processing in Chicago).
i cryo'd my silver ICs---took all brightness out of them and made them very enjoyable. a MOBIE did roughly the same thing. which is better? don't know, as i used diff formulas (but used silver on both, and Ag is always bright until broken in).
also see secondbeat.com for a recent AB blind test using cryo.
We used to treat aerospace components cryogenically to increase their stability to change dimension in space enviroments. We are talking of millionths of an inch changes. We had to use 20 hours soaks in liquid nitrogen to do the job. Dry ice and freezers were of no use. I would assume that changes to the crystall structure would need such treatment for cables. It sounds like a scam to me.
While we're talking about freezing cables, has anyone tried the cable cookers available? For that matter, has anyone tried sautéing their cables? With butter? Margerine?
had some ic's cryo'd by jennifer at jena labs.
AQ lapis X3 showed inprovements, like getting a few more horsepower for very inexpensive investment.
not sure i'd give my audiotruth or other to a machine shop to treat with cranks and cams.
Has anyone noticed whether or not the color of the mesh or outer covering of their interconnects changes after cryo treating?
I once had a girlfriend that had been cryo treated but she never thawed out!
Do you guy's remember what happened to Dr. Evil after Cryo treatment? He just wasn't the same dude:~)
Gboren, i've used two different "cable burners" with varying results. I had a Duo-Tech that i could never tell any difference with. I then went to a Mobie made by G&D Transforms and WOW !!! This thing actually works and makes a VERY noticeable difference. I know that i am not alone in these findings, as Rhyno states basically the same thing above. I've also burned cables for others and they too were amazed at the differences.
Figuring out how to build a more efficient burner is on my list of projects to do. It should not be hard or expensive for the basic circuit. The greatest expense would be the chassis and all of the connectors required to make a versatile unit. Don't hold your breath waiting on my results though, as i'm on project 5 with about another dozen to go.... Sean
What's the origin of the term MOBIE? I'm guessing that the BI is for burn-in, but what's the whole acronym, if it is one?
Jena Labs offers no proof dry ice is not cold enough (may not be), they only offer their say so, which conveniently justifys them as the only person you can go to. Anyone who claims their Cyro process is the "only" one available is lying big time. Anyway, who really knows if Cyro does anything perminent?? If the effects also wear off, your audio memory will never notice a gradual change.
cryo does induce permanent changes from a metallurgical perspective---granted you need an electron microscope to see it, and a resolving system to hear it, but its obvious.
again, jena is not the only show in town. rick at controlled thermal processing in chicago can do it too.
So.. If I had a #2 pencil cryogenically treated would I ever have to sharpen it?
What happens to the dielectric? insullation? In some cables, as much engineering goes into the dielectric as it does to the conductor itself. Couldn't changes to the matter which makes up these IMPORTANT non metallic elements of a cable increase inductance or alter the properties of the cable?
from what i gather, polymers (TFE, PVC, PTFE, etc) do not undergo any changes w/ treatment. long term, only the conductors experience and maintain their changes.
If you contact jena labs, which you can find on the internet, my understanding that jena is quite available and a wealth of information. however she is quite brilliant, and you might need an interpreter to simplify the info...
I had an opportunity to listen to a complete Jena Labs wired system(right down to the cryo treated hubble outlets) it was nice, not broke in yet so I am expecting the rough edges to smooth out. I am interested in how it is going to sound in a few weeks from now. This is slightly off topic, but can you cryo treat CD's? they are metal(with plastic around them) any one try it if so any benefits?
Why don't we just keep our stereos in a freezer?
How about inventing a lineconditioner/ac regenarator/refriderator unit for high end stereos? This unit would provide regenerated ac for the whole system while freezing every component and cables and only revealing the speaker drivers.
The electricity bill will go up, but so are those PS Audio powerplants.
You can run the dedicated power line through a through filled with ice. The cable would run inside a pipe so that ther'e no possibility of a short. This cryogenically cooled electricty would bring a new musical sense: 'dimensionality', 'air' and 'resolution' unparalleled. The same could be done with power line conditioners. Keep them in ice.
However, you have never heard my PSYCHICALLY TREATED CABLES. The sound is definitely out of this world...
I own both a cryogenically treated interconnect and power cord from a local cable designer. I had previously owned the same interconnect but non-cryo. The cryogenically treated cable showed an immediate and noticeable sonic change. The main difference was a smoother, more detailed top end. Also, the musical presentation was clearer and more defined. I have not treated all my cables, but based on my experience I would recommend you try it.