evo: there is a wealth of knowledge available about cryogenic treatment of cables on this and other sites. for a starter, you might goto:
in the "text to find" box, type in "cryogenic." i'm sure you'll find something of interest.
Are you planning to cut some material with them? Cryogenic treatment is very expensive. It is used to bring metals to ambient temperature over a very gradual time span after tempering. This period could last sometimes weeks. The purpose is twofold: to keep the crystal lattice in the intended spatial arrangement and to avoid corrosion caused by tempering with salt. As an example, some high performance industrial knifes and other precision cutting tools (such as Japanese hairsculpting scissors) are now being cryogenically tempered.
It's a great buzzphrase for marketing!
Voodoo once more...
So no one can give me a sonic description of before and after.
I know what the process does, but what effect does it have on the cable sonically.
It doesn't cost very much to do cables. I bet you could get a dozen interconnects done for under $30. I talked to a place here in town (cedar rapids, iowa) about doing some parts for my drag bike. While I was there I asked him if he'd ever done any cables, he just looked at me kinda funny and said "I've never done that before, what's it supposed to do?" I told him what i've read about treating cables and he said to bring them in sometime and he'll run them thru the treatment for free if i'll give him feedback as to how well it worked. I haven't gotten around todoing it yet but when I do i'll be sure to let you guys know.
While I haven't had ANYTHING Cryo-treated myself, I have noticed an alarmingly significant increase in the number of "cryo-treated" used cables for sale on Audiogon - but were not advertised as such.
While there are many folks who suggest that cryo treating cables is the best thing since sliced bread, I would presume that most of us who buy used cables often, would like to know the truth behind the history of the cables.
From what I have read, CT works well on some items - but can destroy others.
For those who read this - please remember to ask the seller before buying used cables (and other components) whether or not the item for sale has been treated. I'm sure you do not want be the sucker who spends hard earned cash for someone else's scientific experiment. As far as I am concerned, if a used cable has been cryo-treated, it is worthless on the regular used market.
For those of you who brave enough to have cryo treatments done, here is the name and number of a source.
CyroPro (888)300-2356 talk to Dave - I believe they charge 10 bucks a pound for the service.
Stan Warren uses dry ice for all his mods and cables. He did tests with friends at a university in Oregon that had access to frozen nitrogen and they concluded dry ice is cold enough. So you can do it at home. If you call Stan Warren, I am sure he would tell you how he does it. His number is available on other threads.
I think it's Jena Labs which really bags on using Dry Ice as a means to cryo treat cables saying, "the effects are only temporary".
I seem to remember a post on Audiogon about someone who put cables in the freezer...they got moldy and crusty or something. Ick! And to his amazement, they also sounded terrible!!
Here is the statement made by Jena Labs regarding Dry Ice:
Several audio writers, equipment modifiers, and so-called technologists have promoted refrigeration of cables and electronic parts by packing in Dry Ice. This is NOT cryogenic treatment. It results in only minor and temporary improvement. Even gas bath refrigeration in a cold furnace cooled by LN2 will not provide a sufficient chill. Scientifically speaking, Cryogenics refer ONLY to temperatures at or below the vapor point on Nitrogen, -320.4° Fahrenheit. Our process involves temperatures that are substantially colder than this. Clearly, dry ice has nothing to do with Cryogenics. Only true Liquid Nitrogen Immersion, as employed by JENA LABS will fully and permanently enhance the musical behavior of metallic conductors.
Go read a metallurgy book, guys!
Bringing an industrial knife from (-320) degrees F over a period of two to three weeks to ambient temperature after being tempered is NOT cheap.
And stop listening to cables, will you? It's a new year!
from what i gather, you could get all the benefits of cryo via an extensive break-in w/ a specialized device (a MOBIE, for ex).
cryo is NOT simple. you cannot just drop your wires into liquid N and expect them to emerge better---proper treatment required gradual reduction & increase in temp over a long period of time (a few days ideally). a real cryo shop will know how to (see Controlled thermal processing in Chicago).
i cryo'd my silver ICs---took all brightness out of them and made them very enjoyable. a MOBIE did roughly the same thing. which is better? don't know, as i used diff formulas (but used silver on both, and Ag is always bright until broken in).
also see secondbeat.com for a recent AB blind test using cryo.
We used to treat aerospace components cryogenically to increase their stability to change dimension in space enviroments. We are talking of millionths of an inch changes. We had to use 20 hours soaks in liquid nitrogen to do the job. Dry ice and freezers were of no use. I would assume that changes to the crystall structure would need such treatment for cables. It sounds like a scam to me.
While we're talking about freezing cables, has anyone tried the cable cookers available? For that matter, has anyone tried sautéing their cables? With butter? Margerine?
had some ic's cryo'd by jennifer at jena labs.
AQ lapis X3 showed inprovements, like getting a few more horsepower for very inexpensive investment.
not sure i'd give my audiotruth or other to a machine shop to treat with cranks and cams.
Has anyone noticed whether or not the color of the mesh or outer covering of their interconnects changes after cryo treating?
I once had a girlfriend that had been cryo treated but she never thawed out!
Do you guy's remember what happened to Dr. Evil after Cryo treatment? He just wasn't the same dude:~)
Gboren, i've used two different "cable burners" with varying results. I had a Duo-Tech that i could never tell any difference with. I then went to a Mobie made by G&D Transforms and WOW !!! This thing actually works and makes a VERY noticeable difference. I know that i am not alone in these findings, as Rhyno states basically the same thing above. I've also burned cables for others and they too were amazed at the differences.
Figuring out how to build a more efficient burner is on my list of projects to do. It should not be hard or expensive for the basic circuit. The greatest expense would be the chassis and all of the connectors required to make a versatile unit. Don't hold your breath waiting on my results though, as i'm on project 5 with about another dozen to go.... Sean
What's the origin of the term MOBIE? I'm guessing that the BI is for burn-in, but what's the whole acronym, if it is one?
Jena Labs offers no proof dry ice is not cold enough (may not be), they only offer their say so, which conveniently justifys them as the only person you can go to. Anyone who claims their Cyro process is the "only" one available is lying big time. Anyway, who really knows if Cyro does anything perminent?? If the effects also wear off, your audio memory will never notice a gradual change.
cryo does induce permanent changes from a metallurgical perspective---granted you need an electron microscope to see it, and a resolving system to hear it, but its obvious.
again, jena is not the only show in town. rick at controlled thermal processing in chicago can do it too.
So.. If I had a #2 pencil cryogenically treated would I ever have to sharpen it?
What happens to the dielectric? insullation? In some cables, as much engineering goes into the dielectric as it does to the conductor itself. Couldn't changes to the matter which makes up these IMPORTANT non metallic elements of a cable increase inductance or alter the properties of the cable?
from what i gather, polymers (TFE, PVC, PTFE, etc) do not undergo any changes w/ treatment. long term, only the conductors experience and maintain their changes.
If you contact jena labs, which you can find on the internet, my understanding that jena is quite available and a wealth of information. however she is quite brilliant, and you might need an interpreter to simplify the info...
I had an opportunity to listen to a complete Jena Labs wired system(right down to the cryo treated hubble outlets) it was nice, not broke in yet so I am expecting the rough edges to smooth out. I am interested in how it is going to sound in a few weeks from now. This is slightly off topic, but can you cryo treat CD's? they are metal(with plastic around them) any one try it if so any benefits?
Why don't we just keep our stereos in a freezer?
How about inventing a lineconditioner/ac regenarator/refriderator unit for high end stereos? This unit would provide regenerated ac for the whole system while freezing every component and cables and only revealing the speaker drivers.
The electricity bill will go up, but so are those PS Audio powerplants.
You can run the dedicated power line through a through filled with ice. The cable would run inside a pipe so that ther'e no possibility of a short. This cryogenically cooled electricty would bring a new musical sense: 'dimensionality', 'air' and 'resolution' unparalleled. The same could be done with power line conditioners. Keep them in ice.
However, you have never heard my PSYCHICALLY TREATED CABLES. The sound is definitely out of this world...
I own both a cryogenically treated interconnect and power cord from a local cable designer. I had previously owned the same interconnect but non-cryo. The cryogenically treated cable showed an immediate and noticeable sonic change. The main difference was a smoother, more detailed top end. Also, the musical presentation was clearer and more defined. I have not treated all my cables, but based on my experience I would recommend you try it.
I am wondering if crying my 18 gauge zip cord would produce positive results.
Cryogenically treating anything improves its performance. And someone recently posted, even putting cables in the home freezer for 48 hours offers a very noticeable improvement.
"Cryogenically treating anything improves its performance. And someone recently posted, even putting cables in the home freezer for 48 hours offers a very noticeable improvement."
Wow! Looks like there’s a fly in my spider web already! Breakfast! 🤗
Do a Google search on something along the lines of "electrical conductivity copper cryogenic treatment". After you sort through all the results on thermal conductivity and electrical conductivity at cryogenic temperatures, perhaps you will find a paper or two about measured effects ..... and pretty much anything left will be consumer audio cables.
Perhaps, at this point, you will ask yourself why, when cryogenic treatment is only modestly expensive, are there not more articles, advertisements, etc. about cryogenic treated copper for improving conductivity and transmission in industries where they can both justify the expense (i.e. communications networks) and where they have the knowledge, expertise and equipment to quantify the differences?
Teflon and similar fluoropolymers can withstand cryogenic temperatures fairly well. PVC jacketing, and even the very common polyethylene insulation essentially becomes glass like, so any movement can induce fractures.
Another fly! That’s lunch right there! No McDonalds for me today! I hate to judge before all the facts are in but this fly appears to be one of them Wiki skeptics. 😛
It seems highly unlikely that any harm can come to audio cables during or after cryogenic treatment since most high end cable manufacturers with any sense cryo their cables and many audiophiles send their cables into the lab for cryo. In fact, you must cryo your cables if you want to compete on the world stage. Better safe 🤗than sorry. 😢
I am new to this village, but one thing you learn when you travel a lot is every village has an idiot, everyone knows who they are, and they are usually easy to spot.
Do you ever have anything of value to add to threads, or just this running dialog with yourself? I am sure you find yourself amusing. I expect others, not so much.
And now, because you were not happy with just looking inane, you are going for deceitful? After I called you out on your non helpful tweets, you edited your initial post to look like you had something to add. You did that 20 minutes after the original post ... and after I called you out for it. I have highlighted what you added.
However, as opposed to adding anything to the conversation you pretty much illustrated that cryo in audio cables is for marketing only. However, I can only assume that your knowledge in this area is skin-effect deep since you would not send things to "the lab" for cryo, but to any number of companies that do cryo treatment of metals for physical properties as it is quite a common process and I certainly would not call these places "labs".
You may have garnered more respect if you had validated your statements against Wikipedia as opposed to making false statements, but it appears from a quick perusal of your posts that this is pretty much your modus operandi .... to accuse others of being Wiki smart when you cannot address their arguments in a logical and accurate fashion. That behaviour is childish and if you think it garners you respect, you would be the only one.
geoffkait17,927 posts11-03-2019 11:38amAnother fly! That’s lunch right there! No McDonalds for me today! I hate to judge before all the facts are in but this fly appears to be one of them Wiki skeptics. 😛
It seems highly unlikely that any harm can come to audio cables during or after cryogenic treatment since most high end cable manufacturers with any sense cryo their cables and many audiophiles send their cables into the lab for cryo. In fact, you must cryo your cables if you want to compete on the world stage. Better safe 🤗than sorry.
Oh, are you looking in the mirror? When I was a kid and told people I was going to be a comedian they all laughed at me. Well, noone’s laughing now! 🤡
I respect you ability to cut and paste from Wikipedia. 😬
No, they are still laughing at you, most are just too polite to do it to your face.
geoffkait17,927 posts11-03-2019 11:50amWell, noone’s laughing
atdavid: addressing everyone with the scientific end of the thing does no more than not addressing them.
If they understood what someone was talking about, then they would not need the scientific explanation. If they are given that explanation, due to them not understanding the result, there is generally little to no chance they understand the scientific explanation.
The whole thing becomes a circular mess.
All that is left is open ridicule, as all other avenues have been well exhausted. Ad infinitum.
It’s that maxim: "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win”
But on the internet the curmudgeons remain at the laugh and fight level, they never progress past it. And if they do, they do it silently, the saving face bit..and they are replaced by the next wanna be dogmatic ’law’ spouting expert.
IMO, Geoff gave up long ago and remains in a comfortable ’smack them around’ mode. For good solid reasons.
the next thing I’m aware of, and I’ve been through this many a time..is..that..if one shares the reasoning, the few get it and then the attacks cease. Sort of. For a while. Until the next thing comes along that they don’t understand. Which isn’t long in coming.
Meanwhile, some of them are rushing to production and the patent office, to take one’s explained ideas and understandings...for themselves.
For me, I’ve served up about 5-6-7 patents that way (ideas patented by others), served up to other people and actually started up two branches of ’high end’ product (audio and video) areas via ’doing things right’.
I did this so often, for a while, that I used it as a litmus test to see if someone was decent and capable of being trusted. If they took the bait for the low (hanging) level patent (fruit) or idea and stole it, then they showed they could not be trusted with the good stuff.
IIRC, and I can’t explain who and what, but there is a recent patent in some areas of high technology and is used by a audio company of new renown (re-established by the owner, etc) all based upon my stolen idea.
I shared an idea with someone who can’t keep their mouth shut, it seems, and that idea ended up being the center piece of a new company from a stalwart in the audio business. The person I knew and shared with was hanging out with the ’stalwart’ at the time it would have been gestated). Number 7 or 8 or 9, for me, now? (stolen ideas, patented by others)
So if you want to figure any of this out, it is ALL ON YOU. You can demand all you want but a sensible human being would ignore you.... and when you refuse and demand again, then expect to get smacked about. For all the right reasons.
I’m changing my movie classification to "Split" ...I count three personalities (so far)...one in cryo prison, the other a quick show, and....
The only thing scientific in my post was that Teflon insulation can stand up to cryogenic temperatures, PVC and polyethylene, not so much. I posted this as there were specific questions in this thread about whether cables could be damaged or not.
The rest of my post was to point out that highly critical industries don’t show much interest in cryogenic treatment of cables and you don’t have to be technical to draw a conclusion from that.
Contrary to your statement, I find that many in audiophile communities do actually want to learn and step outside their comfort zone of knowledge. That may require simplifying things more that many of us are used to, but the underlying science does not change. Based on how few people seem to actually post and how many active audiophiles their are, I would say the group that wants to learn is the silent majority and the group that wants to shut down discussion is the loud minority.
Whether geoff gave up or not, I do not know, but I know this is a discussion for a different thread and not where the op was trying to learn. I only responded to geoff in this thread as it was where he tried to negate my comment, not by adding any value or by negating what I said, but by negating me. I don’t stand for that here or elsewhere.
I am not sure where this came from
"So if you want to figure any of this out, it is ALL ON YOU. You
can demand all you want but a sensible human being would ignore you....
and when you refuse and demand again, then expect to get smacked about.
For all the right reasons."
or the rant w.r.t. patents? How is that at all related to this topic and/or this thread or what transpired between geoff and I?
What I really don't understand teo_audio, is why you are trying to shut me down? What is your goal here? What are you trying to accomplish? It really makes no sense within the framework of this discussion.
They laughed at Bozo the Clown, too. He who laughs last laughs best. 🤡 Good luck with your Google searches. That’s the next best thing to cutting and pasting from Wikipedia.
“If I could explain it to the average Joe Blow they would not have given me the Nobel prize.”
I’m sending the entire 52 CD box set of Mercury Living Presence CDs off to the cryo lab as we speak. Gee, I hope the polycarbonate layers don’t get all brittle and break into little pieces. Or Explode! 😛
"Cryogenically treating anything improves its performance. And someone recently posted, even putting cables in the home freezer for 48 hours offers a very noticeable improvement."
As I mentioned in that same thread, freezing works only for ice-cream. All else is imagination of a few people with ice-cream envy.
I'm a pro musician....some of the pros I know have treated their trumpets, sax's, etc. They say it makes the sound better.... I couldn't tell the difference.
Did you perform a controlled double blind test? It’s generally two weeks from the time you send a musical instrument off to the cryo lab and get it back AND let it settle down from the cryo treatment shock for at least a few days. Plus, your aural memory must be outstanding to remember how the instrument sounded more than two weeks previous.
"Did you perform a controlled double blind test?"
Would closing both eyes while playing a trumpet qualify as a double blind test?
Shouldn’t you be outside riding your little horsey? 🐴
There are no horses around here, but I will take your suggestion seriously and go out.
In that case is there any sand?