Ceramic insulator cone under phono stage shocker!

Just one Mpingo disc in the room will change your whole way of looking at wood and looking at the world. And get this. The Mpingo disc is only 1 1/2” in diameter. Hel-loo! Imagine my embarrassment when I was with Mapleshade at the show in 1997 with Mapleshade and the Mpingo disc I had knocked off was sitting right there on the floor in plain view near the speakers where Pierre put it when who should come walking through the door but the two dudes from Shun Mook. Knocking off the Mpingo disc is no easy chore, don’t try this at home kids, stay in school, for a number of reasons, including but not limited to the fact it’s directional in the azimuthal direction as well as top to bottom.

What a tease! 

As long as you’re happy I’m happy 😃 

This is kind of what always happens. Trying to save a few bucks. Penny smart and pound foolish. The oldest audiophile game in town. No offense.

Loose lips 👄 sink ships 🚢

Yes. 

The type of my spring and how many springs to use is a function of the load and the center of gravity COG height above the springs. For moderate loads like uber’s Subwoofer, 4 of my Baby Prometheans will suffice but for heavy loads above, say, 75 LB use Super Stiff Springs, 4 of which will support loads up to 100-120 LB. For a load of 60 LB use 5 Baby Prometheans. For even heavier loads add as many springs as necessary, given 30 LB per inch rating. For tall speakers accommodations must be made for the high center of gravity.

Give me the proper spring and I will isolate the world.

No shirt, Sherlock. Nice of you to say so, though. 😬

The Nirvana Isolation Platform, Special order only. Dual heavy mass-on-spring layers. Three granite, bluestone or slate slabs, each heavy slab separated by a number of springs. The number of springs of each layer varies along with the load. The lower set of springs obviously must support more weight than the upper set. The lowest slab is supported by SUPER DH Cones and the component on the topmost slab is also supported by SUPER DH Cones. This dual layer platform provides two stages of isolation for the component. The trick is keeping the resonant frequencies Fr of the two iso systems sufficiently separated so they won’t interfere with each other. That would be a very bumpy ride if they did.

No, I do not ship granite, bluestone or slate slabs. 😛

Thought for the day - LIGO was able to detect gravity waves by using isolation not tuning.

It’s like looking in the mirror. Barry is the man! But for Led Zeppelin CDs I somewhat prefer George Marino, who remastered the Led Zeppelin Remasters Box set of 1990, which apparently used the original master tapes, at least as far as I know. As fate would have it, I heard some of the Led Zeppelin 1990 Remasters on a BSOTA (that’s Beyond State of the Art) system Saturday. If you could hear what I heard with my ears.

By the way, don’t fall into the trap of trying to figure out if something falls into the Tuning category or vibration control. It’s not that simple. Michael Green uses springs yet calls them “tuning.” He is a staunch anti isolation kind of guy. See the irony? But I digress. Wood is a know resonator, you know, like Mpingo discs, so I would put wood squarely in the VIBRATION CONTROL category. The only good vibration is a dead vibration. 

I have used and some customers currently use granite or Bluestone, which I’m pretty sure are similar physically to slate, slabs with my springs. Cones under the component and under the lower slab. I am quite fond of very hard materials and very stiff materials, the latter resists bending forces. Recall there are three rotational forces along with vertical forces and forces in the horizontal plane. Rotational forces are around the x, y, z axes. Like a boat on the ocean as a wave passes under it. Barry Diament of Led Zeppelin mastering fame is high on springs along with roller bearings, the combination of which isolates in all or nearly all six directions of motion.

Is wood directional? If so, which direction is best? Which way should the grain go? 😳 Has anyone tried stacking two different woods? 😩

toetapaudio
Just to clarify please, Geoff, are you saying that you prefer GS cones to MD springs in some areas or you have moved on from the cones?

What I’ve been advising is a comprehensive program of vibration isolation and resonance control. What that means is both mass-on-spring isolation (springs) and cones are sometimes desired. If I had to choose between cones and springs in a simple set up, I’d choose springs. Especially since we know know from Townshend’s video of speaker isolation that spring systems are rather effective in resonance control as well as isolation. One advantage of going to smaller springs is the ability to forego the complications of plates and cones which are needed for more complex iso stands like my Nimbus and Promethean Base of yore. And for other iso stands like Vibraplane and Minus K I suggest DH Cones should go under both the stand and the component.

That’s how I came to appreciate the characteristics of cones - by having to evaluate the variety of cones available to use with my iso stands. But to answer your question more directly, I no longer sell cones, I used to, because the springs alone are almost always the best solution. This is not to say some damping techniques might be of value for certain applications - e.g., the CD itself, the CD transport, transformers, printed circuit boards, capacitors, etc.

Lastly, DH Cones have other applications beside under components. On top of speakers, on top of Tube Traps, on top of components, and others. So, in that sense I have not ruled out DH Cones, they’re still in the game. Did I mention under furniture?

I see a vacation in your future. 😛

Ban that person!! 🤐

Question, was that compared to the Back Diamond Racing Cones and squares? Because if you still using the BDR Cones under the turntable, ....you know.

Cheapness, I mean financial responsibility, is not always a virtue. Penny smart and pound foolish.  😬 It’s all about the Hardness. The DH cones are the next hardest to diamond. They are NASA grade, harder than other ceramics. The Small DH Cones are what, $39 Set of 3?

It was not Golden Sound’s claim for the one up two down configuration. That was some customer’s claim. Trust me, the “all points down” configuration is correct. 🤗

The Golden Years for Golden Sound were around 15 years ago when Allen Chang carried the DH cones, Golden Sound Cables, Ultra Tweeters, Acoustic Discs, the Intelligent Chip 🤓 - then he kind of went off the radar and focused primarily on his line of HDMI cables. I was in his room at CES demoing the Intelligent Chip, the pebbles, about five (count ‘em!) of my Promethean springy bases, we even had a Nirvana dual layer iso stand! Hel-loo! Golden Sound speakers, Ultra Tweeters. We had BWS Consulting’s Tube preamp. I spent most of the night before the show treating the room with Peter Belt stuff. We had the water bowls. We even had photos in the freezer that year. OMG! 😛 Those were the Golden Years.

Run for the shadows, run for the shadows
Run for the shadows in these golden years

elizabeth
I wish someone would do some study of the changes in sound different shapes of cones create? And what changes in dnesity cause?) I know there are also ebony flattish cones similar to the flatter DH, also the dome shape have similar type in ebony. (I have both in ebony, plus small and medium dome type in ebony. But I am too preoccupied with my exotic wood blocks to go back and putz around with footer shapes. Plus the THREE vs FOUR business? Maybe next year, once I have really explored the exotic wood enough.

>>>>Been there, done that. And as far as I know I’m the only one who has. We covered that last semester. But don’t dismay. There’s always summer school. Do an Audiogon search for Mohs scale of Hardness and all will be revealed.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
Advanced Audio Conceits

I used Super DH Cones on top of components and speakers, as “node dampers.” Anyone recall Totem Beak? At one point in time way back when, maybe fifteen years ago I probably had at least 25 Supers in the room. On walls, too. Oh, and around 50 of the jumbo, medium and small DH Cones, too. I was not shy about using DH Cones. That was around the time I would require blindfolds before entering the room. Which, thinking back now seems a little excessive.

I hate to judge too harshly but it certainly seems, just reading what’s on their web site, that they don’t know the difference between damping and grounding and isolation. At a minimum, it’s a little loosey-goosey, to use the technical term.

I have heard the same thing from a user/customer of DH Cones, the quote is probably still on Golden Sound’s web site. But as I already said that theory doesn’t make sense. People say a lot of things, some of which might not be true. There is no theory I can think of, you know, as a theoretical physicist, why that one down two up theory would ever be true. Whether a the shape is domed, or ballistic or conical all cones act like mechanical diodes. Otherwise you could have a double-pointed cone or one that looks like an egg🥚 We had this class last week. Obviously there are a lot of theories about this stuff floating around.

slaw
@geoffkait ,

Were you the other one in the van?

>>>>>Possibly.

I’ve heard the “one up two down” theory before. It actually doesn’t make any sense. We’ve been over this before not too long ago. Same thing goes for the all points up theory. It doesn’t make sense. And if it doesn’t make sense it’s probably not true. I suggest filing that theory under old wives tales.

uberwaltz OP
GK, So are you saying in your opinion by placing springs under my sub instead of the now spikes/cups I may find an even greater increase in SQ? That would be a nice move if true.

If there was something better I would have already designed it and be selling it. Whaddya think, Junior, these hands have been soaking in Ivory Liquid?

Oh, brother!

Is it just me but don’t springs seem like the obvious choice to put under a sub?

As fate would have it brass is on the softer end 3-4 of the Mohs Hardness Scale 0-10 and for that reason I’m out. Best results in terms of naturalness, openness and dynamics will almost always be obtained with very hard materials like diamond, tungsten, heat tempered steel and NASA grade ceramics (DH Cones), next hardest material to diamond. Even the Small size DH Cones which are actually quite cost effective, clobber most other cones. I used to buy them by sheet! I don’t do this for my health, you know. Of course, there will be an exception or two that proves the rule. Hey, that rhymes! 🤗

Everything is relative. A. Einstein 😛

Wood you believe I’m using something quite similar for the base of my new tiny little bowl acoustic resonators. I use crystal for the catalyst. I have a fondness for Gabon ebony, rosewood, walnut and maple. There is a fine line between resonance control and tuning.

Geoff Kait
machina dynamica
vibration isolation & resonance control

Cones can be unstable for certain things like very tall heavy speakers. I once grabbed a 7 ft. tall narrow Golden Sound speaker just before it went crashing through the window at CES in 2005 after someone accidentally nudged it whilst it was on cones. The solution is to place a 18x18 inch board under the speakers and the cones under the board, thus stabilizing the set up.

Thanks for nice summary. 

My guess is itchy trigger finger. 🤠

That’s weird, I just had my long explanation of MD springs deleted. What’s up with that? 

New Dark Matter it shall be. We aim to please.

Why would I want to take away your title? Besides, I already have one, remember? King.

Was that wrong? Should I not have done that? I have to plead ignorance here. If someone had told me that sort of thing is frowned upon.....😀

Good point. I guess I did. 🤴 

Methinks you should mind your own beeswax. 😬

Oh, no! You’re right! Somebody needs to PM me the prize he wants - Morphic Message Labels, Flying Saucers for Windows or Flying Saucers for Unused Wall Outlets.

I guess nobody wants to win a prize. And the answer is ....

Super Stiff Springs! But the trick is to use two 2x4s, each about 24 inches long. A Super Stiff Spring goes under both ends of both 2x4s that are placed front to back on each side of the rack. This allow you to place the Super Stiff Springs in a very wide pattern, a requirement for stability when isolating a heavy object with high center of gravity. Voila! 🤗 For greater stability place heaviest components on lowest shelves of rack.

Wake up, Uber! I didn’t do nothin’. I stayed on topic and refrained from name calling. I’m only trying to help. 🤗 Deep six my stalker if you want to do something positive. Duh!

Whoa! What?! Hey, you were the one who mentioned it. Cut me some slack, Jack!

Decoupling the rack feet might prove uh, challenging. But it could be done. And I know how to do it! 🤗 

Pop Quiz - first person to answer get a free tweak, How can the rack feet be decoupled from the floor?

I have mucho experience with all manner of cones, ever since I started developing my Sub 1.0 Hertz Nimbus platform which has been a while. What I found out was that the two critical characteristics of cones are hardness and shape. The very best cones, like ceramic Super DH (Diamond Hardness) Cones from Golden Sound, are both very hard have a very ballistic shape. They are more open, more natural and more dynamic. By contrast, BDR cones (carbon fiber) are relatively soft (on the Mohs scale of Hardness, I.e., strong but not hard, AND they have a shallow, much less ballistic shape.

Everything is relative. A. Einstein

three_easy_payments
Although BDR goes on to say:

The proper placement will significantly affect the performance of the cones so the rule of thumb is the tip of the cone towards the resonant surface. For example, under a CD transport sitting on an MDF shelf, the tips of the cones should be pointing down.

So apparently the orientation depends on whether you are using a BDR shelf or not.

>>>>Depends on how you define “resonant surface” since the BRD shelf is still subject to seismic (low frequency) vibration. The whole idea behind vibration isolation and resonance control is to (1) isolate the component from seismic type (very low frequency) vibration while - at the same time - (2) provide a path for rapid evacuation of vibration of the component from motors, transformers, or caused by acoustic waves. So it’s simultaneous equations, not just one equation.

If you compared the Goldmans to the Super DH Cones you would list the Goldmunds on eBay in a heartbeat. Everything is relative. - A. Einstein

Fortunately, in the case of the BDR cones, it doesn’t matter which way the tips point. 😬

Cones act like mechanical diodes, so you always want the points down so the excess energy will exit the system. Points up actually allows more seismic energy to be transmitted to the component 🔝 and less excess energy in the component to escape.