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So, if you have a CD player costing 5000 dollars and want the same from a streamer, look to spend around 15-20,000 dollars. Still got the problem of what ’s being streamed to you is very well the compressed later re-issues vs the uncompressed CD early issue. Same album different issues https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=Traveling+Wilburys&album= And the majority of new music today is compressed too, only a few artist/bands are saying "NO to Compression" . Cheers George |
To me, truth of instrumental & vocal timbre and the ability of the machinery to play a tune are far more important than slam or how deep the bass goes.
Tune?? how is that possible, when the foot tapping bass, sounds like a stick of salami being smacked on a bed mattress, in the 3rd music pass. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ&ab_channel=MattMayfieldMusicAll it serves to do is give listeners fatigue. Because it’s relentless in it’s average level and there’s no quite parts to let the music, your ears, and your brain time to breath. If it were live, there’d be no compression, just like any sound in life. Can you imagine if life’s sounds were compressed to all the same level!! eg: distant traffic noise being the same volume level as the singing bird in the tree next to you "If you have no quiet you can have no loud" It’s called dynamic range. Why screw up our music by taking it away?? Cheers George |
Worst ones I have heard are the scorpions releases from about maybe 6 years ago....,...I think...?.. Yes to me it seems that from early 2000 up to now, they were nutz on compressing (squashing) our music with most re-issues and re-masters, and new albums too. Compression is the Covid 20 virus version of the music industry. Remember: "WITHOUT QUITE PARTS THERE CAN BE NO LOUD PARTS" It called "DYNAMIC RANGE", and it gives the ears/brain a chance to breath and relax! Cheers George |
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George the MSB DACs do sound great.
Yes the R2R Multibit dacs do give you the full dynamic impact, but not just the MSB’s I’ve heard those same dynamics from the Holo and Denafrips dacs as well, which are also R2R multibit dacs. Cheers George |
Dac Chips are a thing of the past. Not gonna find any High End Dac’s or CD players that use them anymore. Too true, today’s best to me are better discrete R2R Multibit dacs that really show up if an album has been compressed or not, my MSB startles me when the big notes hit, yet it caresses me in the quieter passages. Cheers George |
“I predict you’ll all be listening and likely loving streaming at some point.” Yes we will, but let make sure it’s the way we want it, untouched/uncompressed, not butchered for listening to in the car/ear phones/ipods/tv/background dinner music. We need the provenance of the recording given before purchase, so you know what your getting. (otherwise hiend audio equipment as we know it will die) It won’t happen for close-minded folks like georgehifi. No matter what anyone else says, he will show up shortly with a post outlining another compressed recording link Like I did say before, there are the odd ones that come through unscathed, but mostly they’ve had the **** squashed (compressed) out of them "fully" and "partially", only a few have been left untouched (all green). This is just a few of the Qobuz https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/dr/1?album=Qobuz |
I’m one of those tone deaf doofuses who actually often prefers streamed versions of selections over my original Actually compression is good for that, it’s also done purposely with the higher end earing aids. Cheers George |
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"MQA provides the opportunity to deliver the exact sound heard from the real master without actually putting the crown jewels out there to be stolen." Errr, I don’t think so, just these couple that are downloadable are squashed (compressed) pretty hard also https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=&album=MQACheers George |
Phil Collins’ "Testify" CD (Atlantic, 2002) has the dubious distinction of the worst dynamic range in my collection--average DR5, ranging from DR4 to DR6. Five of twelve tracks clip. Here is an artist who clearly is gunning for the earbud market. I wouldn’t be too hasty to blame the artist even though he’s probably very deaf after all that drumming, more the ones behind him and the ones behind the re-release marketing getting everything compressed, aiming for the earbud/ipod/car/background music. Trouble is, it’s these later re-issues, that the streaming/download companies use to sell to the public!! Cheers George |
Here’s another one for you, my most loved classical piece Rimsky Korsakov's "Scheherazade" Look what happens to the two streamed/download ones, squashed like a pancake, only one H/D Tracks used a "semi squashed" one. It’s criminal as this classic piece has the most amazing dynamics of any music ever written. https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=&album=scheherazadeCheers George |
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And there it is, I wish more would discover what you found about later releases being compressed and just sounding "loud" as there are no quite parts anymore.
Cheers George
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George's point, and others', there is now the business opp for someone to go root out the various DR ranges among versions, and offer that to us. I'd pay a serious premium for uncompressed, or less mixes that exist
Our hi-end needs more statements like this if it is to survive, otherwise we'll all end up downgrading to compressed streaming, listening on low/midfi systems, (because it suits this compressed stuff better), along with sadly the majority that don't give a **** about listening to compression. Make this site https://dr.loudness-war.info/ massively popular by visiting it at every opportunity posting results of what you find here, like I have been doing https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/what-s-in-your-cdp-tonight-the-minority-report And getting the best issue/version of what you want, and tell others about it. Cheers George |
George - would you mind checking out apple music Sure here are 65 x Apple I found on DRDB website, same thing, as you can see early ones not so compressed, then more compressed as they get younger in release date https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/year?album=applehere is also HD tracks same, sav for a couple of blocks someone must have said something. https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/year?album=HD+tracks Also - GREAT GREAT video you shared. Did you check out that nirvana one I posted earlier? It’s really hard to unhear that and hate what’s being done to modern music. Yes I hate what’s happening, thing is compressed sound ok until you put it through a system that expresses that wall of sound with no quiet parts. Like they say "if you have no quite parts, you can have no loud parts "NO DYNAMIC RANGE!! Cheers George |
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but whaddya expect for $12.49/month?
Trouble is it is/going to take over from CD no doubt, and if it becomes the only way of getting music, the hi-end will be Audiogon, and so will talk/maybe the owning of very hi-end equipment, because it suits cars, ipod, walkmans etc far better. Cheers George |
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George is ABSOLUTELY correct to cite how new albums found on streaming services are indeed, compressed from a dynamic range standpoint. And that’s where it ends for me, if it’s had the very life squashed out of it, I don’t want this "compressed stuff" anywhere near my hi-end system at home, where there’s no quiet spaces for it, me and the missus to breath to the music as it was made by the artist if he/they were playing it live to you. In the car or through iphones/ipods taking a walk, ok this compressed junk is fine, that's what it was made for and should stay. But as an audiophile it saddens me to see this kind of compressed music being pushed by those ignorantly on these forums (with hi-end systems) and they say it’s great, far from it, it’s mediocre at best being played back on todays hi-end systems. Cheers George |
If you have a high quality dac ,and very good streamer
a key to help ensure noise is at its minimum All this means "nothing" when the music you stream or download is compressed, as shown, in the last few pages, have you read them?? No amount of money spent can help that. Cheers George |
I’ve been comparing quite a bit lately. My ears tell me the story. CD beats steaming (even high res) 9 out of 10 times. Most likely because the later streamed re-releases, are far more compressed than your "older issue" less compressed CD’s. And why the cat. no. should be supplied with any streamed/downloads before purchasing. Cheers George |
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(WITH the caveat that George points out too - provided they're the exact same mix/ release of the album.)”
The test was as follows;
On my son’s system, a Devialet Expert Pro 220 driving Magico S3 through Synergistic Research Foundation speaker cables run a stream of albums on Tidal that I have on CD and them compare them.
You know what the CD is because it has a "catalog number" But what's the version is of the streamed one when there is no provenance you can get for it so you can check it on the DRDB you have no idea if it the latest highly compressed release or not??.
but some of the dig downloads I have purchased (new releases) have included cat numbers in the metadata.
Have you look at the DRDB to see what you got, and "PLEASE" give us the Cat no. of the streamed ones you managed to get form Qobuz so we can all see? As this on is the rubbish latest release from them https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/58448
Could be they dont WANT you to see the data so you cant do your due diligence and compare different master/remaster versions. Certainly not saying this is true but it is in the realm of possibility.
Ummmmm yes this is what I can see is why.
It’s easy to imagine that when streaming audio from a server farm miles away, errors could creep into the signal that would require error correction or interpolation.
Yes, it's only natural to think that there would be even more errors to correct than a CD, maybe compressing and uncompressing the download will create even more again?? Cheers George |
Compressed Dynamic Range of music - yeah - it does suck when I’m trying to get that "audiophile" experience at home on my system. But in the car, or waiting for an uber, or jogging, it’s nice to have that volume compression so my ears don’t blow out between songs or between parts of songs.
Totally agree, "music compression" it has no place in hi-end audio. Neither do these later re-issue compressed albums that they stream/download, it’s done to drown out background noise in the car or walking/ipod and to be able to hear the quite passages with a jack hammer going a few feet away. George - I agree with you on some things you mention here, but you’re confusing file compression with music compression and they are two very different things. Yes I know they are two different things (worded it wrong). I would "if" I downloaded to a HD would want whatever I purchased to be original size, not zipped up into a smaller package. If I streamed and played it live I would also want it original which I think it has to be? or does it de-compress while playing?. But "the biggie", I would very much want the "least compressed issue" of what I bought by knowing it’s provenance, so I can check to see if it’s had it’s "life squashed out of it" on the DRDB site, before buying it. BTW Just got a used Rickie Lee Jones Pop Pop cd for $5, amazing, extremely dynamic album, shame about the album cover though. Looks like she doesn’t allow compression of any sort even with re-issues, then it was late 90’s and later it started to happen. https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=+Lee+Jones&album=Pop+PopCheers George |
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david1949
Records vs CD’s vs Streaming, which is best. Depending on you equipment, all could sound very good or not so good. Sorry David, but not if your streaming/downloading the compressed streamed Quobuz release of this. (Please take time to look at it carefully) "Red is bad=compressed. Green is good= "uncompressed". It’s same album!! very different re-issue dates 32 years difference!!!! This is the "Bruce Springsteen" "Born to Run"
That Quobuz streams/downloads that you pay for.
https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/58448
It’s the worst compressed version of all 28 re-issues/originals.
HD tracks, same as Quobuz, also shockingly compressed https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/78303
And here is the original 1982 uncompressed CD. (which would you prefer?)
https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/98918 Cheers George |
Also the Dynamic Range Data Base ( https://dr.loudness-war.info/ ) was attacked by some unscrupulous people deleting many entries, that didn't like what it’s trying to do for audiophiles, "guide them to the better releases" or expose for all to see the compression in our music! You take your pick. Cheers George |
You’ve got it. (thank tweak1 for that link)
Wouldn’t be great to know the provenance what you get, then all you have to worry about, if they stream it to you compressed to save size (money), but that’s a easy size check, if you have an uncompressed CD to compare.Cheers George
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George, which streamer do you use? Which service? Software? None, I have a friend who owns Soundstage Australia he reviews them and many other things, he assures me it the very best hook up. I hear it on his very revealing system a/b against just the Yammy (as a transport) both into the Total dac D1 now upgraded to the later Total dac https://www.soundstageaustralia.com/index.php/reviews/508-totaldac-d1-direct-digital-to-analogue-con...This is his system
https://www.soundstageaustralia.com/images/stories/equipment1/201711_wilsonalexia1.jpg Associated Equipment - Speakers — Wilson Audio Alexia Series 2,
- Amplifier — Gryphon Audio Antileon EVO
- Preamplifier — Supratek DHT Reference, Lightspeed Attenuator LDR passive
- Sources — Yamaha CD-S2100 used as transport, Totaldac d1-core DAC,
And sometimes mine if I get the chance and he comes over and logs on to whatever he stream services he uses.. Which being big ESL’s (ML Neolith panels 150hz to 10khz), Plasma tweeters >100khz, and SV12 bass <150hz, based, even more revealing I think, don’t know if he does, he doesn’t cross that line. But it’s his bread and butter, you won’t find controversy with his reviews, but what’s said with a red in one hand privately is another story when we do a/b’s . Cheers George |
joscow
For me, I prefer the sound from a well recorded CD over all of the streaming. BTW, I have a collection of over 2500 CDs, 1200 vinyls, 40,000 on a separate hard drive in AIFF format, 300 cassette tapes, and subscription to several streaming services.
Yes until the streaming/download companies put up which version releases they stream/download so you can be assured not not getting the "usually compressed later re-issue ones", you never know until you paid for it. And then they have to guarantee they don't compress it to send it to save themselves bandwidth costs also, but you can check that with a file size that's sent against a uncompressed cd size, (if you have it) Cheers George |
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a troll is a person who posts inflammatory, insincere, digressive
You just described yourself, and what I posted up is fact with proof. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMzd40i8TfALike I said it’s going to ruffle some feathers, and looks like starting with YOU!!!😖 |
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Well, the advantage of streaming is at least you didn't have to purchase
the cd or vinyl only to find poorer sound quality than expected.
You don't have to purchasing the cd or vinyl either, if you check it on DRDB for compression. Cheers George |
What audiophiles need if they want to stream/download.
Is a "Audiophile Streaming/Download Service"
1: That reveals all the origins/history/cat no’s of anything they sell you. (so you can check if it’s version is compressed yourself)
2: And then guarantee they will "not compress it in any way" when they send it to you, to save themselves a fortune. (and you check the download size)
Cheers George
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If you think streaming sounds bad, you’re listening to poor streaming solution.
That maybe, but it all starts with the source, "THE MUSIC" If they (the streaming/download) companies, send you the later re-issues they have, that are big percentage compressed, as shown in the DRDB (Dynamic Range Data Base), then your getting compressed junk. The streaming companies need to give the album Cat No. with all their streams/downloads, so you can find for yourself on the DRDB if your paying for and listening to compressed rubbish. Nothing in life in this world your hearing is compressed including live music gigs, why do it to our purchased retail music????? Cheers George |
Same goes for all Elton John’s "year" released versions, but look what happened in 2019? SHM-CD??? Had to look it up. Some are saying it adds a sheen to the sound??? "false dynamic reading" maybe??? "SHM-CD (Super High Material CD) is a superior quality CD fully compatible with all CD players." https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/year?artist=elton+johnCheers George |
riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook THIS IS GOING TO UPSET A FEW. I just found another interesting fact you can do from the Dynamic Range Data Base site. You can arrange years of date of issue from old to new or new to old Here is "all" of 273 Springsteen’s albums even re-issues sorted in year from "oldest 1st page" to "youngest 3 page" Look at what happens to the great dynamic range in the 1st page then deteriorates the more pages you go and the younger the albums get (in re-issues). https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/year?artist=Bruce+SpringsteenNow I really feel sorry for those acquaintances of mine that didn’t save all their original 60’s 70’s 80’s 90’s vinyl or cd collections, and why they command big money now on ebay And realize now why so many audiophile friends drop out of the audio club scene after they went to streaming and downloading after selling all their collections. Cheers George |
riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook
Thanks for the Link George. That is indeed DISTURBING. Especially the QOBUZ one.
Bruce Springsteen Born To Run Earliest CD v Qobuz Stream/Download Yes here it is for others to compare, I opened up those two Dynamic Range Data Base comparisons to see the dynamic range details. (WOW! big difference) For those that don’t know. Red (bad) means highly compressed Green (good) means uncompressed and original usually from the master. The first 1982 release CD https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/98918And here is the 2014 compressed (squashed) Qobuz one https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/58448Cheers George |
Like I said then you are either deaf or not an audiophile and don’t know what your hearing/listening for
https://youtu.be/3Gmex_4hreQ All those jazz artists posted up (you hand picked) yes they are nearly all great releases regardless of age, but they demand no compressing of their albums as they are audiophile albums. They don’t want their music squashed at all, they want full dynamic impact and silence during quieter passages!!!!!🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️ Wikipedia says..
a troll is a person who posts inflammatory, insincere, digressive,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses, or manipulating others’ perception. This is typically for the troll’s amusement, or to achieve a specific result such as disrupting a rival’s online activities or manipulating a political process. And if this little dig at the end is directed at me, then I feel very sorry for you.🤷♂️ |
If anyone can’t hear compression as I outlined with early cd releases vs latest ones, then you are either deaf or not an audiophile and don’t know what your hearing/listening for https://youtu.be/3Gmex_4hreQCheers George |
Streaming will eventually be better.
Umm maybe, but not when there’s millions of $$$ to be saved by the streaming/downloading companies saving on space by using the more compressed and easier for them to obtain later versions. The only way I see them going to the trouble of finding and paying for the earlier uncompressed versions then streaming/downloading them uncompressed to you also, is for them to "SHOW WHAT VERSION YOUR GETTING" so you can check it here that your getting the early uncompressed ones, and for them to be committed audiophiles also. https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=Traveling+Wilburys&album=Traveling+Wilburysand like these https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=Bruce+Springsteen&album=Born+To+RunThis is very possible if this streaming/downloading compression thing grows too big and if the Dynamic Range website has corruptible $$$$ owners, I can see the streaming companies taking them over. They are apparently a bunch of muso’s that started it, I believe that Springsteen or Neil Young or similar was one of them that funded it There are people that are attacking it because they don’t like it. "Someone tried to vandalise the database by deleting about 76k entries. I restored those entries and ..." Cheers George |
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Sorry that one out of my understanding
Cheers George |
I ripped all my original CD’s years ago and stored them as FLAC files on a local NAS drive, with backup! You did this using "some other cd transport" from it’s digital output to your HD?? Sorry to me there is no way the streamer playing back the HD could be better through the same dac, than just the CD2 as a transport through the same dac. If anything it should be slightly worse from the HD/streamer. (unless there’s some wrong with the Lyngdorf CD2 as a transport it’s digital output) CD > CD/transport? > copied to H/D> Streamer> Dac > system CD > CD2> Dac> system You posted this last year.
The CD2 playing the original CD is superior by some way to any of the streaming options. I now use streaming to explore my music collection, playing background music and finding new music on Quobuz. I then buy the CD and play that for a serious deep listen. That is the way to go.
Cheers George |
@Optimize
I was always led to believe that if an e32 was had (cannot read bit) 1 or 0, then whatever was read before was subsituted for the unread bit?.
Cheers George |
