Since buying the vintage amp I keep waiting for the honeymoon period to wear off. I can't believe how good it sounds! Boy did I miss out all these years with vintage tubes and Klipsch!
I am still getting the cap rebuild.
I do NOT believe this story that all new caps are better. I found the Sonicaps not in the league to the original Klipsch caps. (I guess foil in oil) A for sure downgrade if you like the Klipsch liveliness.
My biggest fear with the Mundorf's Silver in Oil is they will not be as good as the vintage caps. It is not as easy to improve on old stuff as we are told. |
Caps are lucky to last 30 years. The dorfs are far better than vintage but the silvers do have a bit of hi-frequincy sparkle. Sonic caps are not near the quality of mundorfs. Tube amps help flesh out some vintage and other systems. And its easy to improve on old stuff but maybe not so easy to modify some old stuff to be near as good as modern ;) And some vintage is darn good WE RCA JBL some Altecs I feel some of these drivers to be as good as modern transducers. The cabinets not so much so. |
JohnK thanks for the response. Do you feel Sonicaps to be better than the original film in oil in the Klipsch. I did not find them to be in one key area. The way music felt "alive" with the old caps. There was lots of other problems but they do excel at that. |
I know folks will disagree but my findings are that caps need breakin. The dorfs can take a 100 or so hours to fully open up. Maybe you didnt give the sonics enoff time. |
I could hear the Sonicaps breakin even when they were in there. I am having the crossover rebuilt with new inductors as well. Do you find them to make a difference as well? Only makes sense to me as I heard some of them have 300ft of wire. Good wire of 300 ft vs. poor has to make to a difference. |
JohnK I have to admit to never being so frustrated with speakers (or any audio gear) in my life.
The Klipsch have a "real" sound that can't be beat. (that I have heard) Yet the annoying down side can it be fixed? The thing that the Sonicaps took away was the "live feel" and I am not sure what they brought to the table? Lower noise and brought back better bass.
The new style inductors? (air core) I guess the skin affect is much better? Lower distortion? I always found the bass smeared in the Klipsch. Is that caused by the poor inductor?
Mine have the dual phase midrange drivers that are said to be the best ever made by Klipsch. They were only made for a few months in the early '80's until they cheapened out all the drivers. I just found this out from the buyer and Bob Crites. The mid range drivers are amazing! That is what keeps my interest. |
I found the midrange to be the best thing about my klipschs. The bass and trebile are sub optimal. The smearing in bass is due to the bass cab design I built 2 improved klipsch bass cabinets and they sounded near the same poor;) Replacing the tweeter with a fostex realy helped. Like I said in my other posts to this thread I ended up replacing most everything and still my other horns where superior. Maybe you should look at it like this. You have a cool collectable loudspeaker why try to make it modern leave it be, maybe DIY or purchase another loudspeaker for critical use. Just a thought |
JohnK the Klipsch are only my second system. You may be right and I have taken that advice. I am doing the crossover with Alpha core or Mundorf inductors. If that does not clean up the bass I will go no further into the Silver in Oil caps or any other brand. I am just putting in the Sonicaps. (which I already own) I am not to smart sometimes but hearing you say you could never get them right makes me not want to get carried away. $.
I still am shocked at how much difference caps made??? I did not expect that much and would not have thought it was not all good with new caps. I have never heard anything change a system that much! |
I want to offer a different perspective.
I gather from your original post that you've had the Klipsch for a long time and they took a turn for the worse about a year ago.
Your original assessment of a bad capacitor is a possibility but I would encourage you to take that idea and take it one step back.
All components will change over time; capacitors, resistors, magnets, etc. If the speakers are really vintage, they likely have carbon comp. resistors. Carbon comps are really old technology but have a nice sound that is very popular in Japan and Eurpoe and among many DIY and guitar amp guys. They also have the unfortunate effect of changing their values over time (usually increasing in value).
Capacitors also age and change in value and depending on the type, can have catastrophic failures. One certainly needs to be careful with old electrolytics.
The net point is that the values of many of the components could have drifted resulting in the wrong crossover points. It is prudent to measure the values of all the components and check against the nominal values before making any changes. It could be that all of the resistors have changed their values or one of them has gone south. Easy to check with a meter before spending money.
You have already noticed how much changing a cap can change the sound. Modern caps have different tonal qualities than vintage one and they may just not be to your liking. You could try to find vintage caps as replacements.
Secondly, alnico magnets can lose their strength over time. This is especially true if they have been pushed hard due to heat. This is well known among Altec/JBL users since many of those drivers were used in the pro arena where they get pushed hard. At least for Altec drivers, outfits like Great Plains Audio offer a re-magnetization service. This is another possibility. Other speaker problems could be worn diaphragms on the compression drivers, damaged or corroded voice coils, etc.
I would also check the cabinet to see of everything is still solid and that there are no loose joints, holes, etc.
It sounds daunting but a little detective work can go a long way. Just like a car, when they get old sometimes they need to be rebuilt. |
Rchau thanks for the help I will answer what I can.
Almost 2 years ago now they went bad. In the sense of bad I mean the noise level went up. The sound on SS gear became harsh.
Resistors? I do not think they have any?
The midrange from that Alnico magnet is what makes me keep them. Still amazing!
Capacitors? When I had the Sonicaps in I could hear that the speakers were now crossing over at the right spots. The bass was much improved and the highs were I think better than ever! But the down side was the "life" and realness in the midrange was gone as well. They didn't sound defective with Sonicaps just not majical.
I have looked for vintage Aerovox to see if they are still made. That is where the Mundorf Silver in Oil comes in as a close replacement to originals. The originals were film in oil.
Another factor is break in maybe I just did not give the Sonicaps enough time. I am having them installed in the new crossover. I am getting the quote with new inductors. I want to see if inductors cleam up the bass and if so new Mundorfs are coming. I feel (hope) that Mundorf Silver in Oil and top notch inductors (Alpha Core or Mundorf) will max out these speakers. I am from the camp who loves them when they are right.
I have had one of the bottoms off to see the woofer and the other was too tight to take off. Looked mint in there.
I do not know if you have heard of Arthur Salvatore but he ranks the Khorns as the best vintage speaker ever. He says just once he would love to hear a all out version. I myself feel the same.
I could hear a increase in noise in the speakers. I assumed it was the cartridge only to find out it was not. Maybe someone else could pipe in do bad caps have a high noise floor?
Yes modern caps have a different tonal quality or lack of is a better way to describe them. (dead and unemotional) I do hope the Mundorf's are as good as original that is all. |
IMO, Sonic Caps sound like Sonic Crap for the first 50 hours or so. After 100 hours they start to open up. I'd say they're 90% broken in after 200 hours. You should consider giving them another chance before moving on.
Regardless if you move on or not, I'd love to hear your impressions. |
Face I will be doing something and my gut says just get the Mundorf's. I was surprised to (and somewhat not) hear that old caps did do something special. I think the oil in the Klipsch does something and caps are wayyyy more important than I thought. Maybe (I feel) why some people really like the Mundorf (oil caps) is they have brought back the best quality of the past. (that oh so real mid range) |
Volleyguy
I did some more poking.
It looks like the crossover for the La Scalas do not have any resistors but a large number of oil caps.
It also appears that 5 different Klipsch crossovers have been used ranging from the original A crossover to the newer AL-3 crossover. There is also a popular aftermarket crossover, the ALK. People seem to think the AL-3 and the ALK are the best.
It might be worth calling Klipsch and see what they say.
My reservation about just putting in the Mundorfs is that you really have no way of telling what the end result will be. I have a dealer friend who sold a Mastersound amp and the customer wanted the caps upgraded. We ended up putting in the Mundorfs because they were the only caps with the right ratings and the right size. The sound changed dramatically. I certainly did not like the new sound. I found the sound too tilted towards the top end. Of course, the changes are relative and subjective and everyone will have a different opinion. And that's the problem.
Also, just because a cap is an oil cap doesn't mean they all sound the same or have a certain magic. In one preamp I built, I swapped out several kinds of oil caps and they ranged from bright to utter warm and slowness.
BTW-before you do anything go measure the resistance across each driver, especially the tweeters. Make sure the values are nominal or at least close to spec. |
Rchau I think most would say the original A network that Paul Klipsch himself designed would be the best or the AA. The AA came out at the time of SS with added tweeter protection. The new crossovers seem to be hit and miss.
The interesting part is Klipsch is no longer a high end company. They are more mass market or mid fi.
They do not even stock replacement parts and send you to the aftermarket guys.
You are 100% right on new caps. I wish I could just get the old ones again or else I am gambling. The does concern me what you said about the Mundorf's. Klipsch Lascala do not need a tilt to the upper end.
Tweeters are 6.4 and 6.7 ohm
Mid's are 10.8 and 10.6
Woofers are 3.9 both
I am unsure if that is normal spec but I do think it close. |
Your measurements don't seem out of the ordinary. It would be a problem if one tweeter was at 6 ohms and another at 30 ohms.
The AA is the most popular crossover. It is hard to replicate the exact sound without using vintage parts. It is possible to find vintage replacements but it will be a pain. You'll have to hit e-bay and swap meets.
Don't give up. You seem to very passionate about Klipsch and you have had these speakers for a long time.
As for the Mundorfs, my impression was based on the one case. However, I find that a tilted up sound is popular these days since it gives a sense of detail. So what works for people used to modern speakers may not be for you.
There are other oil cap choices. The Jensen/Audio Note caps in my experience are a lot warmer (too warm for me). Also, you could try some ASC oil caps.
It may be worth talking to guys who make the ALK crossover. http://www.alkeng.com/klipsch.html. |
Rctau thanks for the help. I have talked to Al on the phone. I am trying to keep as close as possible to original or better of course. I never would have thought that to be a tough thing. I will have to wait to see but have the feeling a plastic cap cannot sound like an original film in oil. That Mundorf tilt does concern me. I do have modern speakers as well. JohnK just says get modern horns. He may be right. |
Rchau I did hear that the Mundorf's (oils) were about 2 or 3 db hotter. That would make sense to me as the old oil caps are hotter as well. I sure have gained an appreciation for speaker tuning. I was thinking last night and thought I might just start buying single caps and start doing the tuning myself on one speaker. This might be more cost effective. Might just get the board built with room and run jumpers onto caps try a few kinds on one speaker then have the right ones solder in. Sell off (for what I can get) the ones I do not like. That way I am not buying full sets for two speakers. Mundorf oils are over $600 for both. But a tweeter and see is not to bad? Some vintage oil caps are cheap anyway. |
It probably is better to tweak a few caps at a time. It takes experience since you don't know how each cap will respond in a given situation.
Tuning at this level is an art.
Using the most expensive components is rarely the best solution. Also, just replacing everything with the same in vogue part willy nilly is also a bad idea. You may have to mix and match and sometimes that cheap $1 part is the right answer.
As for JohnK's advice about getting modern horns, that is not necessarily a bad idea but an expensive one. You will have to do a lot of homework since there are a lot of good horns out there and many are pretty obscure. There a lot of resources out on the net these days. If you go this route don't just focus on the well known brands or have nice ads. |
Rchau any idea why you do not see the film in oil caps around any more? |
Volleyguy-The answer is probably demand. Since modern mass market electronics run on low voltage (less than 24V), mylar film caps and the like are whats used in mass market stuff. Oil caps are typically used only high voltage equipment and it is a much smaller market.
The audio market for oil caps is rather small and limited to smaller boutique manufacturers. Paper in oil is popular in audio so these are made but that leaves little room for film in oil. There is probably somebody making these. You'll have to look.
You could try the paper or metal foil in oil types. Or try something like the Jupiter beeswax caps. |
What what I have seen from the old caps they are somewhat hotter. (louder) I am just going to have to start buying some and see. I suppose I can start with the tweeter caps and see what the caps sound like. I have this speculation that as caps break down they get slower. I think that is why the original caps started to sound bad on SS. (the same gear as when it sounded good) The caps seem to break up? When I put the tube amp on things did calm down a lot! When the Sonicaps went in all the break up in sound was gone. The liquid real sound gone but all the harshness as well. Do caps get slow and to slow to keep up? If I am right that is why (I think) the Mundorfs will do well fast yet smooth. This should be interesting. I am getting new inductors as well and manufactures say to keep within original spec for ohms. Less ohms means tighter thinner bass? |
The concept of fast or slow in audio is a rather nebulous concept that is not well defined.
As caps age, they change their values and hence the crossover points. They can also have other problems like leakage resistance, etc. Not a good thing.
It does sound like the original caps were shot. The trick is to find the right balance.
As for the inductors, the dc resistance is a side effect of having a real part. The higher resistance in an inductive device means more loss in the crossover. Also, the DC resistance of the inductor becomes part of the crossover and can change slightly the crosspoints. I wouldn't worry about this since the effect is small and you can't avoid it. |
Well were talking Air core inductors do really sound better? (than Iron core) No one uses Iron core on higher end speaker anymore do they? |
Tomorrow I will be ordering caps for the tweeter. They will be Mundorf Supreme, Mundorf Silver in Oil and Duelund. (they are the only ouch to come!) The only to know is to try I guess. I found even the cheap Sonicaps to sound better in the tweeter. So I am starting there. I will be ordering those caps. They are all Class "A" or "B" in this list and most everyone has the Duelund's at the top of their list. At a big cost albeit! I do like the all natural components rather than plastic. I hope one of these will sound the best. Part of me hopes it is the Mundorf Supremes as they are very affordable! |
Good luck and be patient.
I just hope the Duelands and the Mundorfs work for you.
My only word of caution is that I've had plenty of experiences where the hot boutique part did not work but the $1.00 unbranded oil cap from the local swap meet did the trick.
It will be interesting to hear your experiences with the Duelands. Few of the DIY guys on the other forums would spring for such a part. So not a lot of first hand reports. |
I've just installed Dueland capacitors in my speakers.
40uF for the Mids and 5.6uF for the tweeters.
You will not be disappointed.
The purity, transparency and utter lack of any grain has transported my sound to the realms of ethereal.
I have also changed the speaker wiring to Vampire but that preceded the capacitors and also made a difference.
But the Dueland caps make a greater difference than a change of pre-amp. |
Just got home from work and called for the parts. They are calling back. The Duelunds do peak my interest. When someone spends the kind of money they are and is not disapointed well you know they must be good. They seem to be at the top of everyone's list. I am not breaking the bank on one cap anyway. Partsconnexion had a review on the Sonicaps saying they were cheap and sounded cheap would be the exact way I describe them so at least I was on the same page as reviewer. Tony Gee thought the Sonicaps a great cheap cap. I found them more like the partsconnexion review. Not defective but NOT of the original quality. I am not looking to break new ground but do not want to give up anything either. |
Caps are on the way. I am going to put in the Sonciaps to reaquaint myself with them. Then I will put in the Mundorf Supreme's then Mundorf Silver in Oil and last the very pricey Duelunds's.
They did recommend Jupiter but that was after the order had went though. Jupiter has relocated in the east and I am not sure if I want to be the test market for them. |
Sonicaps back in on the tweeters on one speaker. You wouldn't think you would notice much difference with just the tweeter caps replaced but you do! |
Just got first lesson on speaker tuning. The Klipsch as the caps started to go bad started to sound midrange range focused and noisy. I just replaced the tweeter caps with the Sonicaps with 10 hours on them. (in one speaker) I was expecting changes in the high freq. What I was NOT expecting was the midrange is much tuned down???? There is much better balance in the speaker by just changing the tweeter caps??? This I was not expecting. I was expecting the highs to be more or less or better or worse but I was not expecting the BIG difference in the midrange.
This is for sure not all lost. I already prefer even the cheap Sonicaps on the high freq. Replacing tweeter caps (at least bad ones) cuts the midrange down and give much more bass.
For people reading this in the future and are not sure if you want to pour money into your speakers. Start with the tweeter caps for sure the cheapest and it is surprising what they do to the "other" freq.
At first I thought what will I be able to tell from just tweeter caps? Maybe a lot!
In critical listening sometimes I like to listen to say just the bass guitar player. With the old caps you could NOT do that. You would just be frustrated. They sounded dynamic but a mess! Ok till you really listened.
I am more excited then I have been since the start of this. For sure I will be replacing at least the tweeter caps.
Very excited to hear these Duelund's. These are the copper foil ones that Tony Gee rated so good. I hope they live up to my expectations. |
Wait till you hear what replacing the tweeter with a fostex t900a or t500amk2 would do;) klipsch tweeters are not so good...I would replace the tweeters before I would buy crazy costly caps like dueland. Not mater what cap you run on the klipsch tweeters its not going to be near the performance of a t900a with the most affordable caps arround. Dampening the bass cabinets also is a good place to start. So to get the best out of klipsch upgrade tweeters, upgrade crossover, dampen bass cabinets and you should be good to go...Or turn them and buy a Altec model 19;) To me the altecs a superior loudspeaker. The model 19 also benifits from adding t500amk2 or t900a. |
JohnK you may be right on the crazy caps. They for sure are expensive! I can not say yet whether they are worth it? I am not really interested in mods though just making them as good and hopefully better then new. I can say that plastic caps are NOT as good as original. So it does not make sense to me to put cheap caps in unless of course they sound good. Sonicaps fit the cheap but not the sound good. JohnK remember from my point I was very happy with the Klipsch for 25 years unmodded. If my old caps had not gone bad I would not be doing a thing! I have this feeling that caps are like what has happened to many other things in audio. At one time people were SURE digital was better then analog. At one time people were SURE SS was better than tubes. People were SURE hard ceramic magnets were no worse than Alnico. (even thought Alnico cost 30 to 50x as much) Alnico was not supposed to matter we were told. I think oil caps will likley be the same and just wish I could get more of those antique oil caps I had but that is impossible. I am on the same page as Arthur Salvatore wishing to just once hear a fully done set of Khorns that I might add are still his top EVER vintage speaker and STILL one of the best! (money no object) |
JohnK is this your speaker company and do I understand you use Mundorf Silver in Oil and Alnico Magnets in your speakers? Have you ever tried the Duelund's with your horns?
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/realitycheck2/kalinowksi.html |
Yes KCS is my company. Many of our models use mundorf caps and sport quality alnico magnet drivers. I have used Duelands and they are very good but its the transducer that maters more than the cap. On my Klipsch and altecs I used t900a t500amk2 as tweeters. Still have 2 pairs of altecs bunch of other vintage but I collect because Iam interested in the design and construction of vintage not bacause its equal to modern in quality of sound. Though the altecs after a wee bit of work are close to modern horns in quality of sound. Have heard many highly modified and stock k horns a good friend uses 4 arround his pool!! Sure can be fun for partys. I use 1 pair of altecs in my bedroom hooked to a small TV and SACD DVDA player sound is very pleasent great for late night presleep listening. Good luck with you quest and happy listening, email if you want a pic of my main horn rig. JK-K.C.S. |
The Mundorf Supreme and Mundorf Silver in Oil and Duelund caps are in should be a fun weekend. The Mundorf Supreme is even much larger then the Sonicaps. (over twice as large) The Mundorf Silver in Oil is huge! The size is at 2.2uf is larger then the Sonicaps at 13uf. The are many many times bigger than the 2uf Sonicaps. When you hold one up to the other the Sonicaps look like toys! The Duelunds are shockingly heavy! My goodness they even make the originals seem lightweight by comparison. The Mundorf Silver in Oil by size and volume of cap is close to original oil filled caps.
I do not know what this means but will have an idea this weekend but at least for all that money both the Mundorf Silver in Oil and the Duelund's do NOT look like toys.
Can't wait to hear the difference?! |
I have one Sonicap and the Mundorf Supreme in one speaker. I can not say anything yet as I do not know if there is or even should be any improvement or change from the 2 Sonicaps. I am expecting to hear more difference when the Silver in Oil is added in and will be two Mundorf's together.
From here down is about the Sonicaps only. This was before the Mundorf was installed.
I did write down impressions on a Nirvana Nevermind CD. (I know what you guys are thinking)(not normally what I listen to either)
There is a rawness to Cobains voice that when put through the Sonicaps was sterilized. On the vintage oil caps
1. There was a mid bass drone. Highs dead. But again a raw rauncy realism to Kurt's voice.
On the Sonicaps reverb not there. They sound cheap. Kurt is very distant with a not there feel. Controlled and sterilized.
I always found this album to be sad in that it never come across right on CD. I have always been going to buy the vinyl and did once but kept coming through warped. |
First hour impression of the (one) Mundorf Supreme is good. Seems to be more dynamic. Voices already sound more real than just Sonicaps. There is some sssss though. I am almost sure Mundorf's are a louder cap than Sonicaps. The Mundorf's are going to be in better balance for sure. The Sonicaps are far to quiet compared to the original. Almost like going through a filter. The Mundrorf Supreme has MUCH more energy than Sonicaps. As I undertand caps they are like batteries and the voluume (size) in the Mundorf Supreme is likely 30x and the Mundorf Silver in Oil at least 50x. The leads on the Mundorf are at least twice as thick.
I am hearing the drone on the old caps more and more in comparison. |
Enough of just hearing one Mundorf I will be installing the Silver in Oil in just a few minutes. When it was two Sonicaps the volume was much lower in the Sonicaps over vintage oils. With one Mundorf it is much closer but still louder in the vintage.
Just installed the Mundorf Silver in Oil and Mundorf Supreme. |
First 10 minutes of Silver in Oil. They are brighter than Supremes. The filter of the Sonicaps is removed. The Silver tilt the emphasis upwards. Maybe beyond what I am used too? I do not find they hurt the bass though?? as I have read? They just seem to emphasize the cymbals. It seems somewhat unnatural too. It sounds like they can go higher and it is like they want to show you how high they can go? So far I would lean towards the Supreme's. In this eval I am paying no (or not much) attention to cost. Even with all of that the Supreme's may be the way for me to go. I remember talking to B&W about the Nautilus (new ones) and they said they went with the Suprememe's and I thought it was a cost thing. (like they should worry about that on a speaker that cost that much) I think I can see why they went with Supremes.
I just put in a audiophile CD. The Nirvana is poorly recorded and I just want to see if on a better CD it was the same.
The Audiophile Cd does not make me feel like there is too much emphasis on the highs. So I take that to mean you may not want Silver in Oil if you listen to poorly recorded music. Maybe Silver in Oil is more revealing of the upstream.
This is easily a combination I could live with. Still not better than vintage caps in every way but better in some ways and the downside is less.
Maybe after break in they will be better in every way. I hope this helps people as well in the future who are looking to do this not just Klipsch guys. But the Mundorfs can match the vintage in dynamics.
I will do the wife test again sometime in the future after break-in. (last time she can down to say Wow those new caps are wayyyy better but she was pointing to the speaker with all the old ones in it!)
You can pick out instruments much better in the new caps and they are faster, quieter and do have good dynamics.
They do not yet give you more realism. The old Klipsch (oil) caps are very good at that. So if you own old Klipsch unless your caps are defective you are not going to upgrade them cheaply.
One thing I will say about the Mundorfs they do make you want to listen more which is the biggest thing to me. |
Trying the Mundorfs on a poor recording. It used to sound rough and not near as rough with the Mundorfs. So they are good even on poor recordings. They have smoothed out quite a bit in even less than 3 hours. The hard highs are almost gone!
Tomorrow the Duelund's are going in. |
Duelund's not yet in but I am not feeling a need to rush to them. The Mundorf's are very good!
Beatles Love CD (heard in at least 100x)
What am I hearing now that I could not hear on the Klipsch before or the Linn gear?
I can tell again who is singing which was a problem on the Klipsch.
On Elanor Rigby. Wow! That is at least two violins. I always thought so but now I can hear it. The Mundorfs are sorting out all the stringed instruements. It is making the hairs stand up on my arms!
I am the Walrus.
I did not know it was John saying "choking" smokers. I never clearly heard "choking" and was not sure if it was joking smokers. I heard all kinds of subtle nuances in that song I never hear.
Being for the Benefit of Mr. Kite.
Cymbals sound amazing! The end of the song my wife would always turn down in the car. (my fav part) Paul's bass is dubbed in from I want You. Still not perfect on the Mundorfs but much better.
Yesterday (Beatles)
I believe that is a 4 piece strings. Bass Cello Violin and maybe Viola. Better it was just strings.
Before with old caps the Klipsch were dynamic but you could not listen in any critical fashion because they were a mess.
Strawberry Fields
I could pick out one instrument after another that I did not know was there.
Within You Without You
Still a little rough sounding.
Lucy in the Sky
Cymbals good but not great.
Well time for Duelund's. I am almost afraid after reading Tony Gee's review. Afraid that I am going to like them that much and feel compelled to blow a bunch of dough. He rated Supremes 9 Silver in Oil 10 and Duelunds 12.5!
No matter Mundorfs are as good as I hoped for and WELL worth the money to me!
|
Running the Duelund and one Mundorf Silver in Oil. For sure some change just not yet sure what it is?? |
Duelund with the Silver in Oil seems to tilt even more upward and so far takes the bass off a notch. |
VG, your comments have been quite enjoyable and educational to read!
We distribute the Manger loudspeakers including the 109-AG Ultimate Monitor that uses Mundorf Silver-In-Oil caps. I agree with your comments re: the SIO and would only add the tonality is much more liquid and vivid as in real life esp compared to others - very special indeed though I have not tried the Silver-Gold caps.
The speed is also very, very good which is important since the Manger driver is faster than even ribbon drivers.
Enjoy your experiements!
Jim Ricketts/tmh audio |
Lots of ssssss's right now. Might just give some break in time on the Duelund's. They may not match well with another companies caps either. They may not match well with just the Silver in Oil. They sound a bit hard and bright. |
Thanks Jim.
I started this because when I was looking I would hear buy this or buy that but did not know what it meant.
I always use the does it make me want to listen more. If I am spending a pile of money on gear it better make me WANT to listen.
I am having a hard time not pulling out the Duelund and and putting back in the Mundorf Supreme to work with the Silver in Oil. I will try the Duelund with the Supreme to make sure it is not just a bad match with the SIO.
Being horn speakers I do not mean to say the Duelund's are not good.
The Mundorfs make me want to listen more. Juicy detail. Elanor Rigby I have heard 100's of times and have not ever heard the (I believe) 4 piece strings and with front to back depth. With the Duelund that same magic is not there. The Duelund's are louder and brighter. There sound tends to move toward the older PIO Klipsch caps.
To be fair the Duelunds are not broke in. One thing I have found (for me) if I like the caps they get better with time and if you do not like them they may become less bad but I have not said hate to love it after reasonable break in. You get an idea if you like it within a few hours.
I will check your site out Jim and I think you are right with the Mundorf's. Very special! When you put a cap in and go I never knew that was there when you have heard something 100's of times and it sounds right and better that is a good sign.
I am hearing nothing in the Duelunds I have not heard before. They may be brighter. The Mundorf's felt very musical and balanced.
Maybe Duelund's need to be only with other Duelund's but without anything to make me feel for sure that will be better I will NOT spend that kind of money to find out. The Mundorf's do work with other Mundorf's and now I will likely be buying more to find the right combo for the midrange which is 13uf.
Having one original and one speaker being worked makes this stuff easy.
So far
1. Mundorf SIO and Supreme
2. Original PIO (from memory from before went bad)
everything else is very distant
3. Mundorf and one Sonicap
4. Old worn out PIO
5. Duelund and Mundorf SIO
6. Two Sonciaps. |
Jim this is very educational for me as well. There is $250 of tweeter caps (in just one speaker) with the SIO and Duelund and I would pull them out and put the old vintage ones back in, in a second. So it is for sure not about $. Yet it is about $ too as the SIO are wayyyyy better built then the Soncicaps with 50x the volume in size of the cap. Even the leads are 3x as thick. |
Put the Supreme back in to go with the SIO. (Duelund out)
First impression was they sounded a bit coarse. The better thing about the Mundorf's is they are very well balanced to these speakers. I do not feel like I wish they were louder or quieter. They are just right. I did notice with the Duelunds that the violins snapped out like violins so depending on your speakers you may want that. With the horns it was a little too much. The Mundorf's are more laid back. The Duelund was wearing not as enjoyable. |
VG, I forgot to mention the Mundorf Silver-In-Oil caps need a solid 300 hrs to fully break-in and will go through a roller coaster of sonic changes. Patience will be rewarded!
Glad to see your comments based on Beatles music - a big fan here! btw, Ringo's "songs" were normally done with less electronic processing and may sound more "there".
Jim Ricketts/tmh audio |
Thanks Jim
300 hours. I keep hearing the long break in time but they sound really good to me after 10 hours! Can't wait to hear what they will sound like in 300. Right now I am using the Supreme and the SIO would you expect two SIO's too be better. I am ordering another Monday and likely another Supreme. I may just get the SIO and try two on the tweeters. They are very easy to listen too. Detailed without fatigue. I am very glad to have found a cap that works well in vintage horns. Looking forward to another 30 years with the speakers.
The internet sure is handy to hear from other audio freaks. From the volumes I read on the net I thought the SIO would be the one. But you never know till they are in. |
