My effusive congratulations above were an unsuccessful attempt (so far) at goading Jean into spilling the beans regarding the new innovations he incorporated into A. Salvatore’s “Super Canuck” Lenco :)
Ulterior motives aside, I’ve had some time to get my thoughts together to say a few words about what Jean’s unflagging boosterism of the Lenco has meant to some of us in the stereo hobby. It just so happens that I have been doing a little research of late about SS phono pre’s – having noted that there is a new crop of expensive “state of the art” preamps being flogged on the various discussion groups. In doing that search, I visited a number of audio websites that I hadn’t been to for several years. It seems like folks everywhere are extolling the virtues of $10K+ turntables, $5K cartridges, $5K arms and the like! These are not even considered to be the best available – just “very good”. That’s an embarrassing amount of money to spend on a “hobby”. Who has that kind of cash these days, anyhow?
So, in steps Jean Nantais – the fellow who popularized his own sonic RE-discovery that has allowed some regular folks in these days to actually own at least one hi-fi component that might very well be the best – or a least counted among the best, i.e., the BIG BODY LENCO. He pointed it out to us and even told us how to re-build it and pretty much asked for nothing in return. And yet, what I have always seen as good natured magnanimity has, over the years, been derided by some naysayers as opinionated self-promotion.
Sometimes I wonder why guys do it – put their audio discoveries on the internet for all and sundry freely partake of – only to have envious weasels who have never contributed anything take pot shots at them. Anyhow, hats off to Jean for not simply taking his toys and going home.
You can look at my system and see that a Lenco rebuild was right down my alley and still is a “no brainer” for me. Put in a few bucks for raw materials and few hours of work and WHAMMO! - an audio component that can compete at the leading edge. The Lenco was by far the easiest of my major DIY projects - if you cant rebuild a Lenco, you shouldn’t be trusted around a toaster and a butter knife :) (Speaking of my system, hopefully I will be making some online updates soon. Admittedly, I have been in that phase where, after getting a very good CD player, I haven’t been spinning too many records in the last couple of years. Probably my analog rig has gotten a little too technical, so I plan to do some simplification.)
Finally, there are two amazing things to consider about the Lenco discovery – one that the performance of a refurbished 40 year old Lenco on a big slab of wood can be even be compared a modern state-of-the-art TT in any regard - and two, that is still possible to buy a stock Lenco for a few hundred bucks.
I am glad that I got in early.
Mike |
Did I say 400C? I meant 500C.
Mike |
Mario and Peter, why not do both - and test for sonics? Once the programming is done any metal can be cut.
I can recall reading somewhere that someone (a high end manufacturer) prefered Al to steel for sonics. Arthur Salvadore only recommends the TNT VI if it has the custom all Al plinth - in this case AL vs an acrylic sandwich.
Mike |
That's interesting Chuck. Have your tried reversing all of your cables? I can recall some strange humm and interference scenarios in NYC years ago that I traced to dirty connectors at the cartridge pins. The fact that it is only one channel makes me think that it is tonearm wire related.
MIke |
Pretty sweet! The woodworking appears flawless. You have to love tung oil.
Mike |
Hey Mario, you might want to avoid sealing the plastic wheel with anything that has a lot of solvent in it. It probably wont melt the wheel but could possibly weaken/warp it.
Mike |
Fish, I've got lots of pics for the 88 and 99. Send me a PM.
Mike |
Hey Jean,
Glad to see you back. An interesting post - as always.
I did something similar on my stalled G99 project that may be of interest to the fellers. You can now buy a semi-solid two part epoxy that looks kind of like a candy bar. You tear off a chunk and knead it with your hands - which mixes the two parts. I used one from the auto parts store that is supposedly made to stick to steel. I was a little more conservative than Jean and just applied it in two spots around the rim of the top plate of the G99 - afraid of overdamping as Jean implies. (I know the Despot also sells a version of this stuff.) It may be easier to apply than liquid but I wouldn't be surprised if it has slightly different damping properties. There is another version on the Lenco heaven site where a guy used lead shot captured in Epoxy on his G99 - again one would expect different damping properties.
Of course, you dont get the benefit of patching the holes on the L75 type top plates. Come to think of though, my G99 arrived with an extra hole - I used a small autobody repair kit that included some metal screen material to back and fill it before repainting the G99. Looks stock now.
I was reading through the old thread yesterday, as captured on the Lenco Lovers site, and was amused to read all the objections and caveats regarding the Lenco's ultimate performance that people still felt back then - around page 14-16. Even the guy who I bought my G99 from said it was inferior to both his Garrard 401 and Techniques DD. When I got it I instantly noticed that it had an old worn out plastic idler and no Lenco mat. I can only assume that it probably wasnt tested in a plinth according to the "recipe" either. Although it generally looked beat to shit, it has the tightest bearing of all my Lencos.
Mike |
Peter et al, It seemed to me when I saw a cut down Lenco top plate for the first time that one could fairly easily replace the Lenco top plate with aluminum sheet. I have worked 6mm Al sheet at home and making small holes on a drill press is a cinch.
The hardest thing to reproduce on the Lenco top plate would be the slot for the ider arm - you would need to carefully secure the Al sheet and use a router with a straight cutting bit and jig. The Large hole for the wheel could be cut by a jig saw and Bob's your uncle.
However, Peter if you go forward with the steel idea I am sure that some of us here (me) would like one too and would be happy to help defray the cost. Now the question - which would sound better Al or steel?
Mike |
YMMV, but my HD doesnt carry anything in liquid form bigger than the little epoxy syringes. What ever you do, dont buy your epoxy from a marine chain store - systems like West System are much cheaper from wood working sources.
Mike |
Oh sweet hyperbole, how we've missed thee! Most entertaining, Jean :)
Mike |
Small world - I used to work at the same institution with Jimmy Neutron. I didnt know he used LP's.
I have moved yet again - finally bought something - but lost my 21X21' dedicated stereo room in the deal. My new stereo room is "only" 14X20' w/ a 5X8' alcove for my electronics workbench - I know, cry for me Argentina :)
Anyhouse, I have been Lenco-less for weeks now but I have a larger work shop and THIS TIME I will have 2 systems. I have planned a vintage system for the LR - a refurbed Fisher 400C in the original (refinished) stand alone cabinet, topped by a Lenco a la Francois (stripped to the bare metal and polished in a small plinth). May put my old Dynaco A25's in the corners or try some highend floorstanders I have standing by.
My two armed monster based on a G99 should be ready about the same time. How about a 2 armed monster w/ two 12" tonearms? Watch this space!!! :)
Mike |
Yessir, I made one last casual side trip to the thrift store before I left NY. A 400C and garrard changer in a small cabinet - in perfect condition - for all of $47. Looks like the owner burnt out the original power tubes and just pushed the whole rig into a corner and left it there for 20years. Now, ask me if I have been collecting 7591's for 15 years - Why of course, hasnt everyone? /;0)
In more shocking news, I talked to the thrift store manager down here and he told me that any piece of electronic gear that they recieved that was not in perfect working condition went directly into the dumpster.. oooohhh the humanity!!!
Mike |
Seems like I've read good things lately about the JJ 7591. Otherwise the NOS supposedly rule. Nonetheless, I think the EL34 is basically a better sounding tube.
Mike |
Hey Jean, Mr Red is pretty sweet. A nice job of craftsmanship. Is that a Morch I see?
Mike |
Thanks Jean, I'll tell you where to send the royalties :)
Mike |
Humm... now that you say it, I see the gauss field in my mind too - but what if one made a modified L shape to fit mostly over the coils without interfering with the spindle? Someone with a gauss meter could make quick work of this speculation...
I recall hearing once that galvanized steel as used in AC ducts in North America, is somewhat effective in the same EMF blocking applications as mu metal - any opinions?
Mike |
Hey Jean, I was looking at your system pics again and realized that you may already have the answer to a question that I have been mulling over.
ON the GL88, did you discover anything in regard to screwing it to the plinth? Specifically, did you use wood screws? Is there a washer between the screw and the lenco body? Any advise re how tightly the Lenco is screwed to the plinth?
regards
Mike |
Who dat?
Mario, I was thinking, now that I am getting close to a two or three armed monster, you covered the platter with the mu-metal. Did you try to cover the motor first - i.e., attach shielding to the bottom of the Lenco's top plate over the motor's coils? Visualizing it, it doesnt seem impractical(?)
Mike - who has a cousin named Blue; fortunately, last name not Greene :0) |
Bravo, Jean. "Declare defeat" made me think Eclair Eclat. I think I must have a talent for this naming thing :)
So, any other Garrard Jean-o-tips except the mat? What about feet?
BTW: Will we ever get off of page three?
Mike |
Jean, I notice that in the latest pics of your dynamic duo the acrylic part of your footer system seems to be missing(?) Is this a new development?
Also, I have begun to look around for thin marble slabs like the ones you use. What are they and where are they sourced?
Nice report Mario. But inquiring minds want to know why you didnt tie Jean up, stash him in the closet and listen to the 301?
Mike |
Cool, Jean. I figured as much re the marble thingies but didnt find anything exactly the same on ebray or Amazon. Sometimes I feel the pinch living in a decidedly un-cosmopolitian geographic area. The post office lady looks at me like I'm Magellian or somebody when I get a package from Taiwan or Germany - :)
Mike |
That is very interesting - a standard trick for the Garrards. For 120V/60hz I am planning to try this as I will be setting up my 401 with the Lencos when I finally get unpacked enough to finishing the woodworking.
Mike |
So Jean, are you saying that you are no longer using the neoprene to bridge the gap between the bottom plate and plaint (when necessary)?
Mike |
Whatever. My post was about my Fisher 500C - which I got up and running using the Sheldon Stokes power supply mod. I thought some of the tubes were dead but they all tested good. It sounds surprisingly good in a nostalgic kind of way - think of a really great sounding juke box you may have heard once. Looks cool too.
Its own dedicated Lenco to come.
Mike |
I found a post on the Hi-Fi World forum that says that people are liking Singer Sewing Machine Oil on Garrard motor and idler wheel shafts. Mobile One on the main bearing. I hadn't seen the Singer oil mentioned before (supposedly recommended by Loricraft) - I am going to try it.
Mike |
Hey Mario, it could conceivably make it sound better a la the Symposium footers - if the bearings dont vibrate. How do you intend to dress the phono IC wires? If I understand your intent - to rotate the table to address the different arms?
Mike |
Hey moderator.
My post from 1/15 was on topic - we discuss vintage phono amps here.
Post my message.
Mike |
That's hilarious Mario - just plop the whole thing down on a VPI :) I concur with Jean's answers above - however you might consider putting the lazy susan under an intermediate base which seperates it from the Lenco itself.
Now to coriolis effect - have you considered putting the TT in the middle of the room and beaming yourself to the arm you wish to use? |
Thanks Mario, very thoughtful - but I am actually from DC. No telling when I will get back to NYC. I didnt even look in the rear view mirror on the way out of town :) |
Yes, Jean its a threat to me! How do you cope when a $47 thrift store rig is more musically enjoyable than your all out assault audiophile system? The speakers are Dynaco A-35's bought by my older brother sometime in the early seventies. I my possesion for about 15 years. Can you believe that Dynaco speakers are going for ~$500 on ebay?!!
Given, my super system can do some fantastic things but the speakers are just not there - final mods this week. Even perfected, it will be a completely different gestalt.
Presently considering a 4 arm Lenco :)
Mike |
Switching the voltage can be done, but you will have trouble reaching 33.3 because the tapered shaft that the idler wheel runs on is a different taper for 60hz vs 50hz. See the motor threads and the old "Building high-end 'tables cheap at Home Despot" thread at the Lenco lovers forum.
Mike |
Hi Jean, I shall. I am about to clean the front facia tonight and will post some pics this week. I refinished the cool 60's wooden cabinet it came in too - looks pretty sweet flanked by the Dynacos.
It took me 2 weeks to break out of my paradigm and try the tone controls. It has plenty of bass - almost too much, so I set each speaker on a couple of books and... wait for it... turned the treble up to 2:00! :0) It sounds beauti-ful.
Mike |
Goughary, they are M4 (metric #4) thread screws. If you are in the US, I could not find them anywhere local. They can be ordered in various lengths from McMaster Carr.
Not to be a net wiseass, but lately a couple of folks have asked questions here that were discussed and answered extensively in the old thread, available at the download section of http://www.lenco-lovers.com/ . You can get a ton of info off the old thread - that typically for an old internet thread, people may not feel like answering here.
Mike |
I put up a couple of pics of my 500C - see my system. Now I start to wonder if the Eico HF 87's would have been the way to go.
Mike |
I probably missed my change at the top Eicos - there was a pair of HF60's on ebay a couple of christmases ago - no one bid at about $900.
Mike |
Thanks David. Setting up at least one TT this weekend in order to tune my speakers to the main source.
I think I am going to try a variovent or two - anyone here have any experience?
Mike |
Jean, EL34 PP or class A = one of the best stereo setups there is for music lovers. Like PP6550, it does more right than most amp setups. Only audiophilia, oneupsmanship or the need for more power drives one to seek more. If you ever get a chance to hear Art Audio's EL34 amp you are in for a surprise. It has been on the market for long enough now that one might seek it used.
Mike |
Ol' Jean has moved uptown with his tonearms. I'm impressed - perhaps one day we will all have an address at the Tony Arms. Get it, huh, huh??? :0)
Well, I finally got my L59 set up in the new room and once again I am struck at how not-real cee dee counds in comparison - and Ray Price was sounding mighty fine on CD. Threw on the first record I laid eyes on, Miles / Nefertiti and was blown away with the natural timbres and timing.
In a related story, I am setting up my Garrard 401 and once again am confronted with the (slightly) bent eddy brake disk. It is enough to make the plinth vibrate so you can feel it through your finger tips. If anybody knows where to get a replacement or has other advise, please respond. At this point, I am going to dismantle and try to finesse it back into shape with my fine adjustment tool (hammer).
Mike |
Thanks for the replies guys.
Ebay it is - maybe I'll try Loricraft too. GP49 - this is a replacement pulley - I have the parts for Imbabi's power supply but never built it because I was bummed out by the shipping damage described. DHL has not been very nice to me.
Yes Jean, I read the opinions where the disk is considered necessary to get the full Garrard PRAT.
Leisual, be careful about getting solvent on the motor windings - if you melt the insulation the coil will probably short.
Mike |
Goughary, I figure that it is more reasonable to look for another motor - or even another deck. I finally got another motor from Francois over on the other thread. Every now and then, a Euro-Lencoer gets a 60HZ motor. Keep an eye pealed over on e-Pay.
There is a thread over on Lenco Lovers that answers your question re burning a 50hz motor - I cant remember exactly what it said.
Mike |
Glen, I misread your question the other day. I bought some teflon washers that are approximately the same size (ID) from McMaster Carr. I havent had a chance to test them though. Its definately worth a try.
Mike |
Hey, it's Mario! I check in from time to time, in fact, I made the post above because I couldnt stand the inactivity any more. Right now I am a guy with too many projects. I had my Lenco #2 well on the way when a bearing fell off a router bit and I ruined the top veneer (a large glued up piece of bandsawn and hand planned veneer - sigh). Oh well, I hope to get back to it as well as my other furniture projects soon. Peters plate will be #3 - I am a little surprised that so few people have finished theirs. Regards
Mike |
Hi Fellers, look at this thread on the Teres idler drive - apparently we are all idiots for "believing" in the Lenco and having any contact with one J. Nantais - an unofficial purveyer of idler wheel technology. They even have a picture of Jean in River City :)
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/67/676802.html |
Hey Jean, I have actually done some work on my Giant Lenco #2 recently. (My work schedule kills me) In fact, all I have to do is finish sand and route some slots for arm boards. This one is a layer cake with MDF, birch ply and wall board - covered in band sawn veneer. Its ridiculous how many arms and carts I have now that I have never used - your fault. Still highly curious to heat them all.
BTW: over the summer, a Sony TAE 8450 was offered on ebay - the bids were low and the guy pulled it before I got a chance to bid.
MIke |
Jean - I have been itching to ask a question regarding tonearms.
As I still sometimes read the old thread (dull afternoons at work) your raves about certain older tonearms remain fresh in my mind.
Now that you have the Dynavector and the RS-A1 to sport your Denon, are you still using the likes of the MAS, 1005II, Mayware, etc.? What about MM in general?
Nervous in high compliance-ville,
Mike |
10-4 Jean - got it! Cut once and if it is too short cut it again :0)
About the Decca metal tonearm - can you post a pic or a link to this model. I have seen many Decca arms for sale since you talked about it but I dont recognize the difference plastic one and the metal one.
I agree about the VPI arms - every one says they are a great bargain but no one ever mentions them as a contender for being one of the best in any specific circumstance. I liked my 12" enough that I never upgraded it. I am even a little skeptical about the newest undamped version.
Regarding the Decca carts, until a few weeks ago, I was unaware that Ikeda makes a similar line of cantilever-less cartridges for what seems like slightly less money. I lost an auction for one in Australia last week.
Mike |
Thanks - Jean. I think I'll sand on my GIANT #2 tomorrow. You know what I mean :)
MIke |
I made a post recently on Lenco Lovers about my fancy new CD player having sonically bypassed my Lenco (in my vintage living room system). Well over the weekend, I finally rewired my Sonus arm with the Cardas wire and purple sattelite wire (Thanks Jean and Mario) - and as you probably already expect, the Lenco is comfortably back in front.
What I did not expect was that rewiring would make the music more accessible. As happenstance would have it, I had a few uncleaned second hand records close to the table when I got the arm finished and put back on. I put on Ray Charles "Genius + Jazz = Soul". This sonically OK sounding record (Impulse) not only sounded great but for the first time I was able to understand what Ray Charles intended using the Hammond organ on this record. I must have heard this record for the first time 25 or 30 years ago in the college library, and it always sounded to me like a vaguely lame attempt by Ray Charles to use the B3 just because it was popular. However, after rewiring the Sonus and using a Ortofon VMS20Super MM, I realize now that Ray was not trying to copy the popular B3 sound of other famous players - to my mind, he was going for the same type of mildly distorted staccato sound he eventually got from the Fender Rhodes electric piano.
Cool, no?
Hi Grant - who knew? Will try LP records presently.
Mike |
Nice job Jean!
Fascinated as usual, I went to the web and found that most tables using a ceramic bearing do not have the hard steel thrust plate or anything like the the dimpled pads like we have on the Lenco. The thrust pads were:
- bronze thrust plate with a "soft" ceramic bearing. (the Kokomo 401 bearing kit on ebay)
- ceramic ball running on a ceramic thrust plate. Project TT
- ceramic ball riding on a hybrid alloy bearing pad (bronze, I assume). Monaco TT
- Inverted sapphire disc/ceramic ball bearing for low noise and long wear (Forgot who, becides I just gave away all my sapphire and diamond discs :0)
So it seems like a bronze thrust plate may the other part of the puzzle for use of a ceramic bearing.
Something else tweaked my attention during my search - someone claimed that they "decouple" the bearing shaft from the bearing itself. Fitting a (very) small o-ring on the concave end of the bearing shaft might be very interesting. A thorough cleaning and couple of drops of super glue might be necessary to keep it in place.
So, Jean - what is the new cleaning process?
Mike |
