Better Subwoofer for 2 channel Music: Focal Utopia Sub or JL Fathom f113


Hello Everyone,

I am looking for a good sub at about the 2K price point and am considering either the Focal Utopia Sub (15" woofer, 1000W RMS) or the JL Fathom f113 V1 (13.5" woofer 2500 RMS)- The fathom being slightly more expensive on the ’used’ market.  Both subs are highly rated and the Fathom seams to be very highly regarded on this site so I would like to try it. At the same time, my speakers are FOCAL Utopia BE series so I think the Utopia Sub will gel nicely and I would be able to save several hundred bucks to put towards other tweaks if I went with the focal sub. Currently I have a Monitor Audio Gold 12 Sub (12" woofer 600W RMS) which is very good, but want to see if either the Utopia or the Fathom is much better,  and I mostly use the Monitor Audio in my HT set up anyway.

Specs wise:

Focal Utopia BE Sub  - 15" woofer, 1000W RMS

JL Fathom f113 V1  - 13.5" woofer 2500W RMS

Both subs go down to ridiculously low Hz.

Usually, I am less into specs and more about hearing music (and not sure how important these specs are anyway) but I am not able to audition either of the subs (let alone in my system) , so kinda shooting in the dark and would appreciate some advise on which way to go as these are also heavy and expensive to move around to deal with!.

I imagine I will keep the new sub for a while.

I’d like the sub to merge with my speakers as seamless as possible, and provide that extra lower-level feeling and punch when needed.

Does anyone have experience with either (or both to compare)? Thank you in advance.


Aside -   My 1 pair of preamp LXR-outs is taken up by the connection to the Amp. So I would connect the sub via one of the two remaining RCA outs from my preamp - is there is a better way?

Ag insider logo xs@2xjmarshak

Showing 4 responses by noble100


Hello jmarshak,

      The truth is that a single sub, no matter the quality, size or price, is not going to perform as well as two good quality subs in any given system and room.  You'll achieve better in-room bass response using two good quality smaller subs.  The bass will sound smoother, more detailed and more dynamic because there are two subs sharing the bass duties and not just a single sub being required to produce it all and possibly being overdriven and stressed.   I'd suggest you consider using two of these will provide better bass response and integrate more smoothly with your main speakers:
www.svsound.com/products/sb-1000?variant=9532234051&gclid=Cj0KCQjwgLLoBRDyARIsACRAZe7Yb0D_Yzqu6P...
 

     For even smoother, more detailed and more dynamic bass response, arranging three of these in a distributed bass array (DBA) system would provide outstanding bass response.  The DBA concept is a proven method developed by acoustical experts, Dr. Earl Geddes and Floyd Toole, to achieve near state of the art bass response in virtually any room and integrate seamlessly with virtually any pair of main speakers, even fast planar-dynamic and electrostatic speakers.
     I use a 4-sub DBA system in my room with outstanding results. I use the Audio Kinesis Swarm system that consists of 4 relatively small passive subs (unamplified 1'widex1'deepx24"tall subs with a 10" aluminum long-throw driver in each) powered by an included 1,000 watt class AB amp/control unit that sells for $2,800.  Here's an Absolute Sound review of the Swarm system for more details:

www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audiokinesis-swarm-subwoofer-system/


Tim

Hello fastfreight,

    We all are unable to localize deep bass frequency soundwaves, that is determine where the sound is coming from, that are below about 100 Hz but we're very good at localizing higher frequency soundwaves in the remainder of the audible spectrum, from about 100 to 20,000 Hz.
    This is the reason there's no such thing as 'true stereo' deep bass and why the bass is summed to mono on frequencies below 100 Hz on all vinyl and cd recordings. If you doubt this, try to find a single vinyl or cd recording that is not summed to mono. This means it's pointless to configure subs in a stereo configuration with one located by the left main speaker and one by the right.
    However, thanks to psychoacoustics and our remarkable brains, it is possible to create the perception of stereo bass in our systems. Here's how it works:
    Whether you use  2, 3 or 4 subs, run them in mono and optimize the bass at your listening seat.  The bass below 100 Hz won't be able to be localized but there are bass harmonics or overtones of the deep bass fundamental frequency that extend into higher frequencies that are reproduced by the main stereo speakers and can be localized.  Our brains are able to associate the fundamental deep bass frequency reproduced by the subs, that are not able to be localized, with the deep bass's higher harmonic frequencies, that extend well beyond 100 Hz, which are reproduced by the main speakers that are able to be localized.  This psychoacoustic association allows us to localize the deep bass in the soundstage, for example the kick drum is located in the rear center and the upright bass is located in the front to the left, which would not be otherwise possible without this psychoacoustic association our brain's are capable of.  
     Other factors I think are important to integrating subs seamlessly with the main speakers are the subs volume levels and the crossover frequency setting.  I'll try to discuss my opinions on these factors in a future post.


Tim
akg_ca:
"Ideally, you want two subwoofers so that you have true stereo separation down deep into the bass. Stereo subs can also help to lessen room interaction problems by providing two discrete sources of bass information."

Hello akg_ca,
   Your statement cited above is not accurate.  Two subs will not and cannot provide true stereo separation down deep into the bass. The information below, however, is accurate and useful to know:
   
     Virtually all humans are unable to localize deep bass frequency soundwaves that are below about 100 Hz.  This means we cannot determine where the sound of bass tones are coming from that are below about 100 Hz.  But we're very good at localizing higher frequency soundwaves in the remainder of the audible spectrum, from about 100 to 20,000 Hz.
      This is the reason there's no such thing as 'true stereo' deep bass and why the bass is summed to mono on frequencies below 100 Hz on all vinyl and cd recordings. If you doubt this, try to find a single vinyl lp record or cd on which the bass is not summed to mono and has discrete L+R bass content recorded. This means it's pointless to configure subs in a stereo configuration with one located by the left main speaker and one by the right.  A better approach is to simply operate all subs in mono mode. 
      However, thanks to psychoacoustics and our remarkable brains, it is possible to create the perception of stereo bass in our systems. Here's how it works:
     Whether you use 2, 3 or 4 subs, run them in mono and optimize the bass at your listening seat. The bass below 100 Hz won't be able to be localized but there are bass harmonics or overtones of the deep bass fundamental frequency that extend into higher frequencies that are reproduced by the main stereo speakers and can be localized. Our brains are able to associate the fundamental deep bass frequency reproduced by the subs, that are not able to be localized, with the deep bass's higher harmonic frequencies, that extend well beyond 100 Hz, which are reproduced by the main speakers that are able to be localized. This psychoacoustic association allows us to localize the deep bass in the soundstage, for example the kick drum is located in the rear center and the upright bass is located in the front to the left, which would not be otherwise possible without this psychoacoustic association our brain's are capable of.  
     Other factors I think are important to integrating subs seamlessly with the main speakers are the subs volume levels and the crossover frequency setting.  For best results, the precise level of these settings will vary by system, the main speakers and the subs used.     
     My main speakers are a pair of 6'x2' Magnepan 2.7QR 3-way planar-magnetic dipoles that are very detailed and smooth but have limited bass extension (down to only 35 Hz) and limited bass impact and dynamics.  To provide the missing bass extension and impact, I use an Audio Kinesis  4-sub Debra  distributed bass array (DBA) system that is very similar to their Swarm system, consisting of four relatively small passive subs with 10" aluminum long-throw drivers powered by a separate class AB 1K watt amp/control unit. 
     My goal was to keep the perception of the four dynamic subs as low as possible, have them only become active when the source material required it and to blend in with my main speakers as seamlessly as possible to attain a cohesive unity to the overall sound quality.  I've achieved the best performance and integration results thus far by running my mains full-range with the subs' volume level set at about 45% and a cutoff frequency of 40Hz.  I believe using multiple subs with smaller and quicker 10" drivers, rather than larger but slower12-15" drivers, allowed the bass to better match the accurate, agile, detailed and smooth sound qualities that the Magnepan main speakers possess, resulting in a seamless blending or integration between the subs and mains.
     I agree that many systems will achieve significant improvements in overall sound quality by utilizing the high frequency pass thru connections for the L+R main speakers on most subs and the Swarm/Debra's amp/ control unit.  This is because the main speakers and their amps are relieved of the need to reproduce deep bass frequencies (usually with a cutoff of about 80 Hz) which usually results in improved midrange and treble performance from the main speakers and amps combination.  I tried this method but didn't notice significant improvements in the midrange and treble performance of my Magnepans and D-Sonic mono-block amps combination.  My thought is that, since these class D mono-blocks are capable of outputting 1,200 watts into my 4 ohm main speakers, the relief on the power requirements gained from the amps and speakers not being operated full-range didn't result in the normally significant sound improvements in mid-range and treble response attainable with less powerful amps and different main speakers.
     However, I realize every system is unique and suggest trying out both configurations, running the mains full-range and with restricted low frequency output, to determine which you like best.
   
 



Tim  
gdnrbob: 
"I won't speak for Wilson, Focal, or your audiophile friends, but I can say that for Magnepan, Soundlab and Vandersteen, subs, especially Vandersteen subs work extremely well. The use of the high pass filter allows fairly seemless integration. The new Sub 3 subs offers equalization which makes placement even less of an issue."

  Hello Bob,
     The main point of properly positioning subs in a room, whether it's 1 or 4 subs, is making sure there's not a bass room mode (a spot in the room where the bass sounds exaggerated, attenuated or nonexistent due to bass sound waves and their reflections colliding with one another at various spots in the room) at your listening seat.  Equalizers are able to correct bass mode peaks (heard as bass exaggeration and boominess) at the listening seat but are very limited in their ability to correct bass mode dips and nulls(heard as bass attenuation and nonexistence respectively) at the listening seat because this requires large amounts of amplifier power to correct, the lower the frequency requiring boosting the higher the power required.
      Also, a properly setup and configured Audio Kinesis or custom 4-sub distributed bass array (DBA) system will provide near state of the art bass performance quality not only at the designated listening seat position but throughout virtually any room and seamless integration with any pair of main speakers, including Wilsons, Soundlabs, Vandersteens, Magnepans or any other supposed "difficult to integrate subs with" main speakers.  Here's a link to a professional review that gives a very accurate description of what bass performance quality level to expect.

https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audiokinesis-swarm-subwoofer-system/