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An Audiophile Goal

An Audiophile Goal.

I have been grappling with the perceived problem of listening to LPs at the same volume setting, for every LP. The original post that I addressed this problem with is here http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1179765549&openmine&zzAcoustat6&4&5#Acoustat6. It was to discuss my idea of playing back all LPs at the same volume setting regardless of type of music or recording etc. To say it was a debacle would be an understatement to say the least. The discussion did not start the way I thought it would and went quickly downhill from there. I would like to put that behind me and realize why it was so controversial and failed as a discussion. As I originally said this idea was new to me and it took such a long time to coagulate my thoughts about this and the reasons why it works. The answer is obvious now. I didn't have an audiophile goal.

I got the answer from reading the recent post about J. Gordon Holts article in Stereophile which was discussed on Audiogon. .
The reference being about an audiophile goal in one of the posts. This was my thought, myself and audiophiles in general don't have an audiophile goal (actually, I do have several but I will stick to the topic). It seems that no one can agree on a goal, its all so subjective some say, I like it loud, I like it quiet, I like a lot of bass, I like imaging and on and on. This is fine, that is why we all buy different speakers and equipment. It comes down to you can't measure music. You have to hear it, does it make your toe tap? Can you listen at a low level? Is the tweeter too bright? Is the Bass too loud? Ad nauseum. And there we go again are my toes tapping enough? What is low level listening? Is the bass loud enough for hip hop but too loud for a violin concerto?

I found myself an audiophile goal and an easy one at that, its 20-20k hz. Yeah, you like it too. Right? You buy phono cartridges, pre-amps amps etc. that are flat 20-20k hz. So my audiophile goal is to get 20-20k hz flat (as possible). I said I needed a goal! I know there is more to it than that, but undeniably it is a goal. Now if I go with a test reference of 83db at 1000hz from my test LP this will be an excellent level for dynamics, noise levels and acuteness of hearing. All that is required is 1000hz at 83db from the test LP and all other freq matching this level, So 10,000hz and 5,000hz along with 500,100, 80, 50 and 30hz with all of the freq in between at the specified level of 83db will all be played back off of the test LP at the same level or as close as possible as can be obtained within a systems speakers and equipment and rooms limitations. Find this level and you leave your volume control set to this position for every LP you play. Pretty simple actually.

The original idea came to me slowly over the last three to four years, though I struggled with the quandary for as long as I can remember and I have yet to hear anyone say, sure you don't do that? I thought we all did. All because I didn't have an audiophile goal. Now I find out that perhaps even J. Gordon Holt may not have an audiophile goal, even one as simple as this. The best thing is now I get to listen to all of my LPs at the same gain setting with its attendant qualities of dynamics, constant noise levels, unchanging freq response and a host of other benefits which come along for the ride.

I knew it was wrong to be changing volume levels and bass levels for different LPs. Jumping up in the middle of a song to hear the bass drums or turning it down for a quiet violin solo and doing the same for complete albums. It was insane, I always felt like I was in junior high school cranking it up for the cool parts. But every one does it, so did I. I was missing that audiophile goal.

I enjoy listening to my Lps, many of which I still have from my early high school days and everything in between which amounts to about 2500 quality LPs. As a now confirmed audiophile, now that I have a realistic and perhaps more importantly a measurable goal, I could start figuring out which albums sound good and which do not. It was easy, every LP is played back at the same gain level (volume control setting if you will) and guess what you hear? Every Lp for what it actually sounds like.

Another benefit is that every system you hear is played back to the same standard from the same test LP, perhaps it could even be used at audio shows where every room is played back at this reference setting. If you choose not to listen at the standard then it is stated at the door that reference setting is either higher or lower than the reference. This way if you choose not to abuse your hearing in a room that is 6db above the reference standard you are warned before entering.

And all of this because J Gordon Holt didn't have an audiophile goal.

If you can listen to one Lp at a certain level whether it be a high or low level why can't you listen to any other record at that level?

Just a few thoughts.
Thanks,
Bob
acoustat6

Showing 5 responses by rauliruegas

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rauliruegas
12,786 posts
 
Dear Bob: +++++ " You buy phono cartridges, pre-amps amps etc. that are flat 20-20k hz. So my audiophile goal is to get 20-20k hz flat ." +++++

Looking to your nice single item audio system IMHO it is almost impossible to obtain ( per se ) your desired goal, many factors in your audio system preclude it: your phono stage has an un-desired non-flat inverse RIAA eq. that it is greater than 0.1db from 20-20kHz, your phono cartridge has a deviation on the same frequency over 1.0db, you have severe deviations on your speaker response due to a high output impedance in the amplifiers, room interaction, etc, etc.
Of course that your goal is a desired one but alone could means nothing, that goal have to come along with very low distortions ( any kind ), noise, colorations, right tonal/natural balance, high resolution, etc, etc.

Now and speaking on your " same SPL " for every LP: I normally heard my system at the same SPL, SPL where my system is right on target where I can hear it for hours with out any fatigue " ear/brain " sign where I always enjoy what I'm hearing it does not matters what I'm hearing where my " foots " are always dancing where my brain and feelings are full of emotions.
Yes, there is one SPL for each audio system where everything is almost right but not necessary that fact means that every single LP should shine: NO!, there are several LPs that have its own and singular SPL ( different from what I hear normally ) where they are on target.

There are many examples about but one that comes to my memory is the Patricia Barber Cafe Blue 33rpm and 45rpm versions: many people say that the 45rpm version is not as good his 33rpm counterpart and that's is true if you want to hear both at the same volume but if you increment by 2-3db the SPL on the 45rpm everything comes on target.
So in the same way that every single audio system has its singular right SPL where it shine in the same way the LPs have its own SPL where it shine each one.

This means that if everyone of us always want to achieve the best ( about SPL ) on each one LP then we have to adjust the volume for each one LP where we can obtain the best natural tonal balance.

Now, what to do?, easy hear at the SPL where you are satisfied!!!!

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
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rauliruegas
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Dear Acoustat6: I just made the measurements of SPL using one of my test records: the CBS STR130.

From my seat position ( 2.90m. ), from left and right channel measures each one by separate and measure with both working, using the 1,000 Hz tone at 0db level I measure: 86db individual and with both running 94db.

Measuring at the same position but with a normal LP ( with music not test tone. ) I obtain 84db with peaks at 92-93db. Hey Bob p we are almost similar on the subject! and like you works for me too.

Now, it is possible that if I take those same measurements say tonight at two O'clock in the morning maybe I have to lower the volume by 2-3db because the ground floor noise is different ( at least where I live ): more silent.

I know that your approach about that 1,000hz is because is the one used as standard in the recording industry ( along the 400hz. ) as a fact is the reference on the RIAA where at 1khz the db level is 0.
Unfortunatelly the whole audio recording/reproduction is not perfect so we can't have a precise number ( like the 83db ) for all, we can/could be around that number that seems to me has sense or at least more that your flat frequency ( alone ) goal. Btw and looking more in deep to your phono stage I can say that the manufacturer specification for the inverse RIAA eq deviation: +.- 1db from 25 to 25khz is really on a not desired side because that +,- 1db frequency deviation ( every time that ocur through the RIAA wide frequency response ) makes a degradation/coloration to the recording/cartridge signal because does not affect a single frequency but almost three octaves due that the RIAA is a curve not linear, the other subject here is the fact that the manufacturer specs start at 25hz not 20hz that is the RIAA standard and this means that below 25hz the deviation is bigger than 1db and this fact means that what you are hearing from 60hz an down is really worst.
I know that you like what you have but what really are you hearing?, certainly not what is on the recording.
Facts like this one goes against your goal, the good news is that you always can/could improve about.
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rauliruegas
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Dear friends: One parrameter that is very important for we can set-up the SPL in our systems ( with out ears fatigue )is how much distortion produce the system, higher distortions means lower SPL so less distortions higher SPL.
Obviously that there is a limit where our " ears " are comfortable and this is singular for each one of us, but that 83db is a good point to start.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
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rauliruegas
12,786 posts
 
Dear Bob: I agree with your two: " do you agree? ", but that happen at almost any SPL!!!

I posted about the deviations on your phono stage to have a reference that that flat frequency goal ( almost desired one ) is a very complex one, I'm in favor of that goal and accuracy to the recording with the whole factors that involve that accuracy to the recording for obtain enjoy and pleasure when we hear/heard our audio systems or any audio system.

As you can read in what I posted I like you heard/hear my audio system at almost one SPL and I change when " that " ( any ) LP was recorded at out of standard recording levels. If you read again you can " see " that my audio system ( with out any previous measure SPL set-up ) SPL set-up almost coincide with your ( start point ) 83 db at 1khz: mine 84 db ( I made this measure to fast,, so maybe is nearer your number. Btw, some years ago I made the measure of my room-system and was very evenly through the audio frequency, today I heard better than on those days, maybe is better. )

I already posted that that 83 db SPL at " your seat " is a very good point to start but what factors will define that you will be satisfied with that SPL?, extremely complex too many factors to take it as a rule, for example: two similar room-audio systems with the same model speakers but with a " little " different speaker specification: sensitivity, one 86 db at one meter and the other 90 db on that same efficiency factor.
Do you think that you can/could be satisfied obtaining ( the same for both ) that 83 db at your seat position?, well maybe yes and maybe not depending on your amplifier ( between other things ) and if that amplifier mantain his distortions level at any measure current demanding. In our example we are " asking " more than double watts at the amplifier with the 86 db efficiency speaker and I'm almost sure that the distortion of that amplifier will be higher in this case and over the time from listening to this speaker ( against the other ) the ear/brain fatigue will be higher and maybe you have to lower that SPL. This is only an example with only one factor in " game " ( well not one but two. ), imagine hundred of factors that influence what we are hearing in our audio system and you can see that that subject is complex!!!! for say the least.

Anyway, I repeat, I agree with you about that 83 db ( at seat position ) start point is: welcome!!!!!!

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
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rauliruegas
12,786 posts
 
Dear Bob: Please read carefully this statements from your calibration link:

" The audio industry doesn't have any standard for listening level. "

" If all CDs were mastered in such a way "

" We know CDs aren't made like this. There is NO audio standard replay level "

" but the movie industry has worked to an 83dB "

Bob, evrything have " if " or are speaking of the movie industry not the audio one. The 83db point is no trouble but any one could choose a different one say it: 82 or 86 ( at a fact each one of us are sensitive at SPL in different ways, my ears SPL limits are different from yours ).
Other factor is that many of what we buy ( LPs ) today are re-issues that comes with a random SPL original recording or re-mastered at random SPL recording: there is no oficial standard about!!!!

Maybe what you have to do is to convince to the RIAA about your subject because with out standards is very difficult to follow a " rule " like you want.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
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