Adjusting SRA using macro lens vs microscope

Dear Dougdeacon: I know that what you said you were listening is what you in true were listening, no question about.

Where I don't know for sure where you are really " stand up " is if you heard what you heard because you are right on SRA for that track/groove recording or because you have the right azymuth or the right overhang or right in two of these parameters or what!.

As I posted, when we change SRA we have to adjust at least overhang and azymuth and I don't read that you made the overhang/azymuth changes everytime you change SRA. Maybe I'm missing something there but I can't understand how you compensate the other parameters when SRA is changes.

Doug, I'm assuming that you/we want that the cartridge set-up with that track in the recording be " perfect ".

In any decent audio system you could hear tiny overhang set up differences, as tiny as 0.1mm, your system is pretty good so you can and in the other side both of you I know have good ears.
How do you know that that tiny SRA changes are the one concept ( SRA ) that in specific made the difference and not the overhang or azymuth or some kind of distortion because some of those parameters ar out of target?

IMHO the first step to tonearm cartridge set-up is to choose a tonearm geometry set up: Baerwald, Löfgren, Bauer, Stevenson or what you like. Why choose any of these geometry tonearm/cartridge set up equations/calculators?

Because in any one of them we have different distortion level in different parts ( inner grooves, outer grooves, between null points, etc. ) of the whole recorded LP surface, so we choose due to that average distortions we want, we choose here our trade-offs.

First target is that the cartridge/tonearm set up be " perfect on three parameters: TT spindle center to tonearm pivot center distance, overhang and offset angle.
If you have a tiny error/difference in overhang or offset angle in the cartridge set up then your/our distortions targets changes and what we choose at the begin it is not any more achieved.

SRA changes not only change the SRA but made that other critical parameters change too so we have to reset these parameters for be again right on target.

All these considerations make that we can't speak that SRA was the " one "/culprit for the " new " sound, IMHO it is more complex than that.
This complexity IMHO too made the whole set up for each one recording a nightmare if we want to do it precise and near " perfect ".
I'm not against to do it with each recording but the analog alternative is so imperfect that we can't make it " perfect ".
In your case what happen if you decide to change your cartridge for other different? what happen with all the work that both of you take it with those 1,000 LPs where you writed in each one the SRA set up?

You need to test again all those 1,000 LPs with the new cartridge, not an easy task and for the second time!

I think that before we take this or the other or other one approach in the SRA subject we have to choose our targets/priorities and " build " around those targets with out changing it because the SRA or other parameter changes.

The ears are the tool that almost all are using to the cartridge set up but our each one knowledge on music makes a difference too as makes a differences to understand what is happening in our home audio system at each audio link.

Through the time ( listening time. ) we learn when our system performance is near " perfection " as you already know with your system.

My post is only trying to clarify the whole concept and what surounded the cartridge/tonearm/LP set up.

Btw, you posted:

+++++ " please start thinking about SRA, not VTA. They are two different things. What you'll be viewing with your microscope is SRA. The changes you'll hear as your listening skills advance will be primarily due to changes in SRA, only secondarily to changes in VTA. " +++++

Doug, everytime you change SRA you change VTA too and everytime you change VTA you change SRA too. Sure are different and the meaning is different but both are IMHO " primarily ". When people change VTA to improve his system quality performance the improvement comes because that VTA change changed the SRA.

Anyway, the important subject is to have trained ears to be " there ".

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Glai: Good to know that now you are " there ".

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Glai and friends: I think that MF article was writed just to have some " fun " because I want to think that MF knows/knew what Doug point out on the SRA subject.

IMHO we can't have one answer for all circumstances, let me explain it: if you are experienced on music sound reproduction through a home audio system then your ears could be the best way to go but if you are not so experienced then the MF article makes more sense to me.

The John Rish article has sense and I agree with him if we take in count that what we want is to have the pleasure to hear music as more time we can, so taking an SRA average set up ( according with the kind of LPs we own: grs, years where were recorded and the like. ) could be enough for many of us. But for the ones that want to be " absolutely " sure that we have the precise/right SRA on each LP or the ones that are making especial tests where accuracy is the name of the game then we have to make the SRA/VTA set up with each LP.

Different needs different approaches.

Now, every time we made changes in SRA set up we are " moving " other cartridge set up parameters that in each time we have to reset all them in we want to be " there ": overhang, azymuth and even VTF or antiskating. This means a hard work each time but this is the price for accuracy, nothing comes free.

There are different " roads " to " attack " the subject, each road has its own trade-offs and we choose the road according the trade-offs we accept. As better quality performance has our audio system as lower trade-offs we have to accept.

Obviously that always our each one priorities are the ones that take the decisions.

Btw, Normally in all the Ortofon cartridges the manufacturer recomemdation ( to begin with. ) is that the top of the cartridge body be even to the LP. As Doug point out the Ortofon cartridge are extremely sensitive to SRA/VTA. I never read the A-90 operation manual on the subject but I already heard it in my system at least three times and I made the set-up with tiny positive VTA if not even.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Peterayer: I don't try to dimish in anyway Doug/Paul approach. I know very well Paul and Doug and I consider them my friends along that they are very dedicated guys on the subject with wide experience and good ears.

What I tryed through my post is to point out how complex is our analog hobby and if we want to take the " perfect " road then we have to know that is a nightmare road for say the least.

Btw, Doug I'm , like Paul, more oriented to bass frequency range on the SRA set up. I mean more oriented because for me is more easy that way but that does not means that the other side in frequency spectrum is not important too.

+++++ " We all make trade offs in this analog hobby, I agree with you. I don't plan go to the effort of changing cartridge alignment for each LP. The "effect" of changing the VTA/SRA setting is enough for me once a good average alignment is achieved and if the arm is capable of easy VTA adjustments. " +++++

the trade-offs we choose to achieve our targets are the ones that could define each one approach in the cartridge set up subject.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Wntrmute2: As other cartridge/tonearm set up parameters the anti-skate is an important one that we don't have to dimish because it has a very precise role in the whole analog set up subject and not only because VTF.

As this parameter IMHO the Azymuth set up is extremely important and critical and many of us are not given that importance and I would like to say that many times if we " play " a little with Azymuth set up we could be surprised how tiny azymuth changes can make a high difference, I think we need to " work " a little on Azymuth set up too.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Dougdeacon: The A/S by geometry /machanically is a must to have: that force vector exist and needs to take care about.

This A/S set up parameter is another nightmare subject that depend on many other factors to we can hear tiny " gradation " changes in its set up.

IMHO and in a scientific way does not exist: " the optimal A/S value for my present cartridge happens to be zero. ", this is waht you like it and I'm not questioning about but any cartridge/tonearm set up needs " some " A/S quantity. At random can we find a cartridge/tonearm set up to be cero?, could be but??????

through any LP exist different recorded velocities all over the LP recorded area that affects the A/S, all over the recorded LP area exist waves in the LP that affect too, even over the LP recorded area exist differences in the tickness of the lp that affect too and all we know that we need different A/S depending of the place ( outer grooves, midle or inner grooves. ) where the cartridge is playing a LP.

Not only that, different tonearm A/S mechanism makes that the A/S had differences in its " aplication " and in some cases like in your tonearm the " A/S device its self feeds noise into... ".

All these " factors " and some others make that's almost imposible to have the right A/S set up over all the LP recorded area.

Some of us are working with out A/S in the cartridge/tonearm/LP set up but this does not means we don't need it or means that sounds better with out A/S set up. That could be a misunderstood: we need A/S set up, it is not matters which cartridge we own.

Maybe if our cartridge has a 2cu on compliance and works with 5grs on VTF then we can't heard A/S differences but even here the A/S vector exist and be there for " fix ".

The main problem is that there is almost no tonearm with the precise A/S setting device mechanism, it is really complex to do it.

As I posted, we have an almost impossible target: to make an imperfect analog medium be " perfect ", IMHO we just can't do it at least not yet.

When we share our each ones experiences on the whole subject we are helping first to understand the complexity of the subject and second to improve our each one analog set up. We have to continue on this experiences sharing excercise.

The whole subject and our opinions about must be not who is right/wrong but how we can help each to other on the subject.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Dear Dougdeacon: I don't use A/S either but for different reason than you.

I don't have a Triplanar on hand and I'm curious of that tonearm A/S noise that you heard on it and for what I understand comes from the A/S mechanism and that's why you even removed it.

I test a lot of tonearms and never found out any with that kind of " trouble ".

Anyway I think that the A/S subject is clear.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.