hi all, thanks for sharing. i'd try to comment one at a time.
-Response34,
i'll PM you into your audiogon inbox later for privracy.
-Lloydelee21 & Zd542,
points taken. In fact,i sold off pre/power for this upgrade. i own Simaudio 750D cdp & Martin logan Spire. please comment whether these 2 components are suitable for my genre of music. So far the 750D has detail & huge slightly laidback soundstage which i feel this would lay down the basic "groundwork" for my music preference. My buying strategy would be focusing on Preamp first(getting the tonality i desire) as it widely known as heart of a system, then proceed to get a more or less neutral amp because the market seems having more neutral sounding amp than preamp IMHO. Otherwise i would be caught trying to balance between a CDP and Amp. There are other qualities that i look in a preamp so i need to get as much things right as possibles or at least don't get preamp which include something which i dislike and then later buy the amp to correct the fault upstream. Currently there are 2 contenders in AMP category : MOON W-8 & YBA Passion, both can double power as impedence half. i think its shows they are powerful.
i heard Ayre KX-R before but it has qualities that i dislike so it fell through, i would feel restricted trying to buy a amp correcting upstream faults instead of buying an amp for bigger enjoyment.
-Arh,Teajay,Stereo5,Wilsynet:
hi, can you briefly describe what qualities they excel in comparison with other tube pre? any slightest comment is appreciated.
-Tom_hankins : i dislike people whom just drop a brand model without any reason or comparsion and sign off. i'm not convince, perhaps you not aware there are other pre that performs better where the BAT REX suffers? Anyway thanks for your six letters recommendation.
has anyone thought of VTL, CAT legend & Joule electra? are they more resolve & detail as in you can hear more sound in a song than before? thanks everyone, -phil |
Drrsutliff, thanks for your 12 letterings. what good is VAC signature compared to Atmasphere MP1 mk3? regards. |
hi Charles1dad,
thanks for sincere recommendations. i totally agree with you. what i hope is to narrow down a possible list(3 to 5?) without wasting dealer time and inconvenience for preamp that doesn't fit my music genre,eg: ARC and Callisto is OUT(they are magic for vocal) and then base on some critical variables e.g. airyness/separation, clean & clear notes,no veil effect, very detail(able to hear every instruments), not thin nor lean sounding, quietness, sufficient speed. hope to make comparision between preamps base on above criteria,if anyone had done any back to back comparsion.Then i'll try to visit the few shortlisted names. Can i ask between your Coincident Statement and MP1 mk3, which has more high end extension & airyness? thanks -phil |
hi, thanks for all whom had contributed. i have more or less shrink down a list. could i ask your help again to Rank the tube preamp base on below qualities separately?
DETAIL: which has it as in you can hear more instruments & info not heard before, NOT referring to "detailness" quality of each note.
Veloce LS-1
Tron Syren II
AtmaSphere MP-1
Coincident Statement Linestage
VTL 6.5
Shindo Monbrison
RICHNESS: from upper midrange to high freq. emphasis on violin, cymbals, triangles, harp, trombone, higher octave of piano etc..
VTL 6.5
Veloce LS-1
Tron Syren II
AtmaSphere MP-1
Coincident Statement Linestage
Shindo Monbrison
i understand you may have heard in different setups, hence opinion conflicts is inevitable. perhaps, if you may, kindly also mention the partnering gears as well.
THANKS again ALL. i also hope the thread helps to assist GON members make their future preamp selection easier base on the strengh & weakness of the pre. -Phil |
hey, i forget to mention CAT SL1 Legend as well, kindly include it in Ranking as well. thanks, -phil |
- Lloydelee21, hi thanks for the compliments. i'm very very farmilar with Moon & YBA "house"sound. they have huge & airy soundstage. YBA been more fluid and forgiving but still retain detail in a sense that you got to hear "harder", overall presentation is more airy & relax than Moon which has slight warmth in midrange and present music in your room with details more noticeable. Do you know anything about Densen amps? they too are very powerful, anyone know its reliability and sonic qualities?
-Wilsynet, will checkout Hypex NC400/ NC1200 later.
-4musica44107,Alan :i'm going to try Shindo pre, thanks and good to know many also appreciate soundtracks, sometimes those composers didn't get the credits. anyway,keeping my fingers cross.
-Rhljazz, Charles1dad: i have faith in both you had said and already spoke to local dealer for audition.
-Morganc, is the Allnic sound charactertics near VTL or BAT? you had arouse my interest in ALLnic again as i had dropped it. keeping my options open, thanks.
-Grannyring, TRI dude is totally new to me, could you further describe with comparisons ? thanks
- Teajay, i'll read your reviews and judge accordingly. thanks for mentioning CF-080.
-just look at Symphonic Line website, in German! unable to find dealer contacts. |
hi Rtilden,
Thanks for your input. Certainly would be most helpful if you like to share your experience over the phone, you can PM me your number if you can talk about its detail characteristics.
At the price of Ultra GT is asking, it certainly have to be good. i could build a whole system with that budget! is the 'Reference' model sound very very close to your model? can you let me know what other preamp have you tried before finalising P.A.D. as your ultimate? thanks. |
hi Charles1dad,
thanks much for your heartily recommendation. i auditioned and was almost a jaw dropping experience. it paired with Rogue audio Medusa, Goldmund Cdp w/Wadia DAC & SuperVictory II. the only part not up to expectation is bass region. Depending on music genre, songs without much bass & boom factor would certainly benefit miles ahead of other preamp, even SS preamp such as Spectral. Its very quiet and revealing, notes are clean & clear without veil.I heard sounds buried within the huge airy soundstage that i never heard before, eg,rapid gentle metallic tingling sounds(don't know what instrument that is)at backend of the concerto, amidst of other dominating music notes. Imaging is excellent, front & back also well portray. Texture and smoothness is just right, absolute not analytical. Harmonic richness is OK though not great, perhaps due to its airyness, and because of this, separation is the Best i've encountered. From midrange to high freq. is by far the very BEST preamp i heard, may even be better than any pre costing almost 3times as much.
As for the bass part. my dealer is working out a matching amp for me. in the meantime, we also agree that i can try out other pre as well. It's a matter of balancing the qualities that i seek in a preamp. I really have high regards for Coincident now, i Really Thank You for introducing this model as i never knew this brand before.
Anyway, i would hope people to suggest or rank the preamps above as i haven't get the chance or unable to hear due to locality. thanks
- phil |
HI Whart, i'm only searching for line stage only. Lucky me, no additional cost for the phono. BTW, i'm using Martin logan speakers and their sonic are rather neutral, perhap slightly warm\bloom from the 400hz down which i experience when compare to other ML speakers which using a smaller 8" woofer.
Topoxforddoc, i have extensive experience with ML electrostatics so i'm not worried about gain issues too.
i fully agreed that best is to hear it in my system, however, i have no amp and have not decide which one yet, that happen to be the bad part, or perhaps could i say i also have the luxury to match up with tube pre later for better synergy performance, and i know how my Spire would sound.
Anyone have better approach to solve the dilemma i'm in ? thanks |
has anyone heard a Purity Audio Design preamp Silver transformer series? thanks |
Hi Mbovaird
does McIntosh c1000 c/t/p have left right volume control balance and a phase switch ? Thanks |
hi i don't require long ic, just concern that it should preferably have phase switch & balance knob.
i find many have the extra emphasis on upper bass which i think the designers are trying to make vocals more enticing, most also can't create the sense of space if the preamps are focus on creating artificial warmth(midrange) instead of true harmonic richness. That's why it is difficult to satisfy all above requirements (including my earlier posts). i heard VAC and it's real good however it doesn't have balance knob & phase and its sonic have not reach a standard that make me willing to give up required features and to buy it.
Most tube pre sound quite similar in its overall presentation. i have to listen hard to find their difference, perhaps it's because i don't listen to vocals & jazz to hear their immediate differences. But VAC & Coincidence Statement are unique upon immediate hearing. i hope members here can tolerate my "stubbornness" if any as i have little experience on tubes. This several weeks is my first encounter with tubes. i wanna thank Charles & others whom make descriptive comparisons, and Ealph on sonics from technical viewpoint. i don't know why BAT REX keep showing up and why VTL doesn't?? can anyone explain? THanks again. |
hi,Can anyone recall the difference between Shindo, Doshi Alaap & Coincident Statement? it been describe that Doshi are kind of similar to Shindo or even surpass it,and i recall my dealer saying Shindo are very similar(90%) to Coincident, so i'm trying to triangulate the sound of them. Thanks a lot for any comments.. |
hi Charles, sorry to bother you with questions again.
With some audition experiences, i found out there are 2 types of distinctive background silence. First type: imagine yourself on a huge plateau of grassland or perhaps on Antarctica (going for extreme!) where there's miles of open space, no walls,no civilizations, no birds & crickets sound, maybe wind you can feel but no sound of it. There's nothing to hear, pure absolute silence(seen such places on National Geographic!) Now if a live band is playing on such place, what you hear is music notes with its extension/decay and air around instruments (music float in space,no blurry imaging). We hear this music emanates from this "air of quietness" or ambience so to speak, no reflected sound or reflected harmonics. Coincident Linestage is few hair strands close to this type of silence where music emanates from, do you agree?
Second type(most common), imagine yourself alone in a closed hall/theatre (either big or small), and there's no sound. Now this silence you get is definitely different from the quietness you encounter in the first type, right? Sometimes if the hall is small enough,the silence may cause ringing in your ear. If the same band(from the plateau example) playing the same music in this venue(well design & properly damped), we'll hear a nice soundstage & its reflected sound, however, overall music would sound different from the former right? as the music it emanates from has a different type of silence, right? i think this type of quietness which we "hear" are generally refer as dark/black. Also tonally refer as tip down, IMHO, since the reflected sound is losing energy and the effects we hear is more of lower,tone down reverberation??
Charles,i heard VAC signature and it exhibit much less of this "tone down" silence characteristic compared to others, is this silence what you hear too? |
Charles,Yes! i understand your meaning of an artificial or over done 'black' background. So, what i trying to say is many many audio gears have this artificial black/quiet background, and VAC has less of this. The reverberation of notes from VAC are organic,clean & light but not as light as CSL. VAC has more weight, sounds tonally downward as oppose to tip up/airy.
With this consensus in us, is the Dude's quietness background you heard belong to the "black" background as you said or somewhere between VAC and the neutrality of CSL?? Thanks for helping me.
Regards. |
Yes, thanks Charles.
You are spot on with what i feel towards VAC and i know you understand what i'm trying to ask about Dude. just a slight pity that i haven't have the slightest idea how does the Dude sounds. Glad you understands me anyway :-)
Thanks. |
hi Knghifi,
Thanks,your comments are very informative. could you describe your impression of Doshi if you can recall,what is its strength? any comparison would even be better, even if it is in a different system. just curious why many hail Doshi as supreme. i know individual taste varies hence your decision on VAC Sig.
BTW, you heard Dude before? your inputs are appreciated.
Regards. |
dear members, Merry Merry Christmas to ALL, and enjoy more music, more songs. HO..HO..HO... |
i understand most preamp suggested here are top line and i would be happy with them. i truely value all the suggestions and opinions given forth and especially some seniors whom are very helpful and patience with my queries and uncertainties. i also know there are no best preamp as each has their unique strength at each price points.
i would also like to mention my taste, so members here would understand why i'm still seeking while some of the very very good pre had being offered with its sonics fully described in their best words.. Thanks!
From my experience with Coincident LS and VAC, both are very good.As what Charles had said earlier, CLS is VERY airy, with decays extending into the space around you(fills your whole room) VAC SIG not as airy but more velvet and sweet, dynamics are a hairline lesser than CLS, above qualities heard only if you compare side by side. In bass area, VAC surpass CLS every way,it's further confirm by a review i read that 101D tube is not excellent in lower octave. But the main difference i hear is the dark black quietness from VAC as what Ralph said as IM distortion which give a sense of soundstage (but feels artificial to me because i'm hearing the event that is being played in their environment) whereas CLS has NONE, CLS make you feel the band transported into your room and you're closeup with the band. Now, your taste may prefer otherwise. However,i hope to find a preamp with CLS airyness but with Lesser in the room effect(maybe can be describe as slightly less airyness??) and have bass similar to Aesthetics. Because my music are often Large scale and unless i owns tennis court size room, the orchestral would fill my whole room and seems artificial, whereas small size music eg.jazz band & vocals would fit perfectly. I used these 2 pre to highlight the difference i felt about them and my taste. You may differ, but their characteristics they put across thru different system doesn't change as much, maybe because in high resolution systems. i'm not seeking the best but the right kind of ambience portrayal and organic feel for large scale music, not interested in pre that excel in male/female voices, or other genre. i could have describe more detail about other pre i auditioned and describe my taste in relation to them so you know my preference better but guess would be too long winded, hope some would understand my expression/analogy and offer their views. My dealers here don't carry much tubes for demo even thought they represent many brands, they have mostly SS mainly because lesser after-sales services, one of nicer dealer mentioned.
Thanks guys.
Regards & Happy New Year too! |
i had heard a couple of SS pre like MBL, Ayre KXR, JeffRowland, Pass Labs, EmmLabs, Simaudio, Spectral etc... they all have the qualities of good SS but their note's extension/decays seems stiff.
i wonder if anyone else,other than Charles, is familiar with the CSL or heard it before, it's really special,it WOW me within 5 seconds, as for VAC SIG, it amazed me after 20sec into the music. i'm sure anyone whom heard the CSL would agree that it's extraordinary in every way(whether it's your cup of tea is another story though) especially the special ambience effect that's so clear and its decay are very organic and airy,it's airyness is floating around you, in your space. The airyness other gears often convey is the black darkness silence where you hear the music emanates from.
i like to refer to a review in Dagogo by Doug Schroeder, he describe VAC sig in contrast to P.A.D Silver Statement preamp: "general sonic character of the Purity Audio Design and the VAC preamp reminds me of the loose classification I have made between all copper and silver conductor cables. Copper tends to be thicker, denser and tonally turned down. The silver tends to be thinner, airier and tonally turned up"
Given my taste, i would strive to get rid of the tonally down effect, and prefer the CSL airier effect. It's this tonally down effect that many gears have and make me hear the music emanates from black (quietness)background. i'm not sure if people here understand my analogy and i tried my best to described. Maybe different people hear music differently, so i just wanna thank everyone whom had tried to guide me in any way.
Lloydelee21,you make out a very good point, guess i overlooked the actual recording itself and too focus on working the gears to my preferred "coloration". but somehow playing thru CSL,i could hear a difference in soundstage with reduce "darkness background" effect compare to Aesthetcs, CJ...
Rtn1, Thanks for sharing your experience, i had a quick read over your system page and Wow...Congratulation for achieving the ultimate realism with your system. i'll try to learn more of your system and see how to make it work for me, but gotta admit i don't have your kind of budget, certainly make me envious, thanks for appearing here. BTW, how much is the street price for Rex?
Knghifi, i appreciate your guidance especially rolling tubes, so much to learn! BTW, VAC is out because no Balance volume control. i'm unsure about the "darkness" effect that many many gears have can be eliminated by way of synergy? i think Atmasphere has already identified as IM distortion. My cd player already had it and due to "it", the sound has rich harmonics(read as warmth) played thru my YBA pre. As Doug Schroeder mention in one of his review, saying multiple components of warmth may "yielded a very thick and weighty sound". |
that's because most people think Niagra not as suitable to play my kind of music which happens to be mostly modern orchestra music and contemporary pop songs. got it? |
Please kindly read through the posts to understand what I'm looking for. Thanks |
hi Atmasphere,
just reading thru one of your earlier post, you said "Deep bass seems to me the hardest thing for tube preamps to do right, but if they do that right there will be no solid state that can keep up". BUT i think SPECTRAL Audio would have no problem with speed if you are refering to that... |
Thanks Shsohis. but my dealer did not have it. From the reviews, it was described as notes have clarity and not hard, edgy and a big see through soundstage, too bad i'm not prepare to risk 18K without an audition. Neither do i have the chance to hear Emotiva, Veloce, Exemplar Audio, Symphony Line & Viva. i'm really don't have much choice. |
hi Jfrech, these are the comparison comments i like to hear. thanks very much for the info. i agree with you on Callisto & Ayre, both which i had heard. I had not heard Allnic but from the reviews i gather, it seems sound similar to JE audio VL10.1 i would have consider both of these as well but, no avail demo. I won't feel good asking them to open up a new box for audition then not buying it.
i had requested an audition for Nagra, hope dealer can retrieve back the item on loan |
hi Charles,
i have not heard any passive. while most people would definitely say matching is very important when using a passive, i personally think individual taste and music complexity are more influential in developing a person's opinion and judgement. From the reviews of passive linestage, although different opinions were formed, they all share common underlining problem, that is dynamics & attack weren't as good to actives, which is crucial to my genre of music, hence not interested. Thanks for mentioning :) |
Thanks Fossda, i did hear Passlabs X-20, Moon Evolution and Ayre. Allnic, Bat Rex were suggested here but i couldn't get an audition. I find PASSLabs overall lack the airyness, separation of instruments compared to Moon P-8 but P-8 itself sound abit sterile/ hard in the notes decay and slightly more "forward" than Pass, however, overall P-8 is one of the best for doing almost everything right. Ayre is almost perfect but i need Volume Left/Right Balance. Edge, Burmester has no demo. |
