How do you make a final decision on a DAC

I take possession of Tekton DI SE speakers this week. I get the long wait. It seems there are polarizing opinions on this brand but since you like R&R it might be a very good match for you. I have three DACs. I have an older Benchmark DAC1 USB and a Schiit Bifrost Uber and Bifrost 2. I don’t really hear huge differences in sound between the three BUT I would say the the two Schitts sound more organic and natural. But it’s worth noting, Schiit are newer designs, the Benchmark is getting old now. What I want most in a DAC is analog sound. I want natural sound and no harshness on top end, and I want the DAC to reveal lower freqs. I like the mid freqs to sound like tubes, very smooth. I would like the DAC to sound like a $20K turntable with no hiss, pops and clicks and dynamic, lively, with a great separation of instruments.

I think you should keep the benchmark. It’s a good product and I don’t think there is anything to be gained buying one of the dacs you list for listening to loud rock in a shop .

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/musetec-lks-mh-da005-dac

I won't mention brands, because you seem to have good options. 

Here's what you might consider: ask yourself, "What music might I be listening to in the future that I don't listen to now?" and then try out the DAC's with those genres.

For example, I do expect to increase my listening to classical music, beyond my jazz and rock. So, a DAC that does well with classical provides future possibilities that are worth testing now.

Thank you for your response. to 2psyop   You will love your Double impacts, I have had mine for about 2years, NO regrets what so ever. They offer dynamics, punch, clarity, openness,  precision. It may be a shop area, but, it is my primary listening area.  I have tractors, excavators, motorcycles etc. in the general area, but in the area I listen, it is somewhat removed. I don't know why but, the Acoustics are just wonderful. I have a secondary system in the house that sounds good, but not nearly as good as the shop area. Shop is 30' x60'   Listening area is in a n area 20 x30'    On the second note from chayro, you may be right on R&R and the Benchmark.  On the outboard Benchmark DAC, when added, it made a world of difference. No exaggeration. Was just hoping to further that experience with something more expensive and maybe more revealing. Thanks

My take: there is no silver bullet playbook here. Either option can work with no assurance of success or disappointment.

(1) You get what you pay for in most circumstances- coughing up for a stand-alone DAC stsrting going north of $3K is where the differentiation starts to really matter in terms of audio digital performance satisfaction . But that is also with high regard that one has the worthy requisite finess and resolution in the accompanying system to warrant it.

(2) Build quality matters … full stop. Choose wisely, and ignore any temptation of the current low to mid tier marketing flow ads that a lowly or bottom price-point are Goliath killers that assure you all you want and expect. The only thing that goes with the flow are dead fish.

(3) OEM technical setup and problem support for DACS and digital players is hyper-critical. Far too many of both amp-DAC unibox units as well as stand-alone DAC options may really suck in support. They can leave the user trying to sort it out himself with big trouble, and feeling like a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest and very frustrated.

(4) With reference to (2) above, try to audition at least some of your contenders and pretenders first. And strongly then consider buying pre-owned to save a lot.

Brand new “Latest “ brands and models is no assurance of a Yellow Brick Road to audio OZ Go check out how many of the current flavour of the day brand options now appear in the various forum FOR SALE LISTINGS after high expectations from new.

This is a journey of experimentation, experience, and rolled up sleeves rather than any fast destination. Forum member testimonials of certain brands and models may help, but intuitively they have a high measure of personal bias of performance that may or may not be symbiotic with your bespoke system

two points to you op

your benchmark is a very good dac, clean crisp and clear, if you want something that presents music differently, you should speak to that, and others may recommend options for changing...

btw, as you can tell, there are some shills here, shills gonna shill..

robshaw

First I am looking forward to the DIs. It will be hard to be objective with the speakers with all the hype that has been generated. Also I would agree with others here, you’ve got a great DAC. I mean you could try an r2r ladder DAC like the Denafrips Ares II to hear that flavor but I would think the Benchmark is every bit as good. Just my two cents..

FWIW, I recently switched to an Aqua La Scala. I wasn’t planning to spend more than $3-4k, but was able to audition it in my system, and was captivated.

I can’t be of much help in terms of comparisons, though I originally owned a Pontus II, and consider the Aqua to be a significant step up. The Terminator, which would be a more fair comparison, may be a different story, though.

From a technical standpoint, the modular design and upgrade potential is an attractive aspect of the Aqua.

If you can't demo it don't buy it 

Thanks all that tried to to help. The demo part makes a lot of sense, however, hard to do in this environment. I may look into used via The Music Room, it seems to get a great deal of accolades!   I can't seem to get the Denafrips Terminator out of my mind. They just got a US service r located in Buda , Texas  Thanks for all your posts. It is very much appreciated. Thanks

I can't seem to get the Denafrips Terminator out of my mind.

part of the fun in this hobby is to scratch the itch... i am itchy like all the time ...😂

Made my day, also made me laugh. Clint Eastwood phrase of old.  Scratching the itch. Hey thanks, so True!!!   Have a good evening.

Even the reference DACs that are not mentioned here can be upgraded with better parts.  Just finished upgrading a $40K DAC and it was a pretty big improvement in frequency extension, speed, clarity, dimension, separation, etc.

Depends on what you are looking for.

Happy Listening.

Your budget will determine what dac is on your shortlist .

my rule of thumb is $5-6k is for most a reference quality dac such as 

the new Denafrips Terminstor-2, or Rockna , or Holo Springs KTE msy dac 

or Bricasti 3 dac streamer , that being said there’s respectable dacs like the Denafrips Aries2 dac for under $1k that is very good ,Schitt audio, Topping for a small example.and plenty of excellent davs over $6k ,

digital is well over $100 k if you want to spend that ,just as many justify 

 multi $$ 1,000s on a turntable  !!

Why don’t you wait until your new equipment arrives, you set it all up, and you both settle in before you start upgrading? As others have said, the Benchmark DAC is pretty good. It may well be good enough.

The biggest thing is to be able to demo or at least have an at home trial from one of the online vendors.  I ended up listening to a bunch of different DACs before deciding on the Simaudio Moon 280d.  I wanted something brighter to offset my very warm sounding system and can also function as a high quality streamer.  The Moon fit my requirements and sounded amazing.  

I agree with the above poster that there are really no shortcuts when it comes to digital audio, i.e. DACs.  I went from the DAC in a $168 DAC/Amp to a $99 standalone DAC to a $360 model to a $3500 unit to my current $11,000 DAC and there was an improvement with each step, so you usually get what you pay for.  That being said, I was surprised at how close in sound the $3500 DAC was to the $11,000 unit, so I guess Stereophile was correct when they described the ever-increasing importance of the ever-decreasing difference.  When you think about it, getting what you pay for is really intuitive.  DACs generally have two sections:  digital and analog.  For digital, better processors, filters, power supplies, and other components cost more and sound better.  Same with analog:  larger and better power supplies, circuitry, capacitors, resistors, inductors, and other components cost more.  I have found through auditions and purchases that DACs in the same price range generally sound similar although there are some differences, but they are not great.

I went with a Bricasti M3 largely to save money with its built in streamer.  I also have positive prior experience with the brand's demos, and the resale value is stable. My initial interest was in Totaldac from prior demo experience and Holger Adler's endorsement, but they rarely available used. 

Go to Audio Science Review and look at the test results. Choose a DAC within your budget with the least distortion and best linearity. No magic involved!

FPGA 
Then you can load whatever firmware that sounds the best to you.

In this price range consider Chord.  Dave is a bit above your limit but here is Hugo and Qutest is a good dac.

Consider the Cobalt by audioquest. Auditioned terminator 4k from a friend, luxman DO3X 4k, Schiit Yggy 2500 and the Cobalt 300 dollars. Not even close. The Cobalt is quiet natural clean comparatively. So quiet, and timing is more correct.  Real music. Then again I sit in the front violin chair of a great professional orchestra. So what do I know. Of course if budget is no issue then it’s Wadax anything. I am saving up.

Fpga, and Ethernet based, are the only dacs to look at but probably out of your price range. The benchmark dacs are terrible sounding unless you want shrill/cold sounding gear. 

If it’s any help, I sent off a Denafrips Athena preamp to their service guy, Todd,  in Buda, Texas, and the experience was outstanding. Excellent communication, prompt attention to the issue, and lightning fast turn around. Based on my experience, I would highly recommend Denafrips.

I can highly recommend the Aqua Voce S3. It transformed my whole library. Totally awesome sound. I recently upgraded to the Aqua Voce Fomula DAC, only because one used came available through my dealer at about half the new price. It was still more than I thought I would ever spend but couldn’t help myself after having benefitted from the S3. My dealer has my S3 on consignment for $2,850, but there’s a delay in moving into their new building. If you decide on the S3, contact me if interested in a pre-owned unit (which was an S2 that I had sent back to Italy for the S3 upgrade. Whether interested in mine or not, this is the bomb! You’ll be delighted.

@robshaw hey Rob…curious what you end up with. I’m running DAC3 HGC. Prior to that I had Chord Qutest then Bryston BDA-3. The Bryston didn’t do it for me and after an extensive shootout the Benchmark won. That said, Chord really has a magic tone. If I was in a market for a $5k DAC I would seriously consider Chord Hugo TT2. 

For Rock and Roll....blues and jazz, the Denafrips / Tekton combo is balls to the wall. I like the R2R DACS...I think they are the most musical....Like others have said....order the Ares 2 for $800. If you like the R2R sound......you can sell the DAC and get a more expensive Denafrips unit. There is always a market for a used Denafrips. I like the fact that you can adjust "phase".....That one feature really changes the sound and open up a gigantic soundstage like a Live performance. Good Luck to you.

You can read lots of reviews, but you’re still going to be making guesses. Past a certain point it seems to be more about personal taste than anything else. Instead of going all in right away you might try a few different types at more entry prices first. With the used market it might not even cost you that much if you resell after trying them out. My comparisons gave me better insight into my own preferences. While that helped me to make decisions about other gear, it also convinced me to pause my DAC upgrade search. 

@jasonbourne52 

Precisely what I did ... couldn't be happier!

Gustard X 16 ...

2nd @lordmelton would have my vote at that level or Holo Spring 3KTE

If you're thinking Terminator+... That's not a bad choice either from what 've heard.

Audition in your listening environment is the only way.

Any new component has to have synergy with your existing system.

Don't be influenced by a brand name, reviews or technical numbers.

Listen passively and, if you are drawn away from what you are doing by the sound, you will be on to something.

When you feel that you are being entertained more by the music and you stop thinking about your system, that will be a good indicator to help you make a choice. 

I would be interested to know what you don't like about the Benchmark? I am considering moving on from my RME ADI2--DAC, and the Benchmark DAC3 is being considered as its replacement.

I’ve got a very different suggestion & that is the Border Patrol DAC designed & built by Gary Dews in Maryland. He designs & builds really good tube equipment albeit quite pricey. The fully optioned model is just under $2K & sounds excellent! It’s a controversial piece which several well respected reviewers love & some hate because it doesn’t measure very well. 
 

I find it clean, tight but most importantly not at all fatiguing. It has one rectifier tube for the power supply which is not in the signal path. If you listen to R & R & appreciate  the sound of a hood turntable w/o typical vinyl drawbacks, check it out!!

I am another Denafrips fan.  I’m running a Gaia/Venus II combo and it’s wonderful.  Smooth as silk and easy to listen to, while still being very detailed.  I recently tried out the Classe Delta PRE preamp and it has an ESS DAC built in, and it didn’t even come close to the Denafrips combo.  (The Classe is still an amazing preamp, though).  Also, I have dealt with Todd and he fixed an Avatar CD transport that was a little off and did a great job.  Plus one Denafrips for me.

I like the ideas mentioned of waiting until the system is set up. You currently have a good DAC and based on how all the pieces work together may effect the direction you go with your potential new DAC.  A 20X30 foot area sounds like you have one of the best pieces of gear already..... a large room. 

@dancarlson10 

Are you commenting about using the Cobalt (versus these other dacs high level dacs) in a home speaker system and not with headphones?  

That is impressive if so!!

"Consider the Cobalt by audioquest. Auditioned terminator 4k from a friend, luxman DO3X 4k, Schiit Yggy 2500 and the Cobalt 300 dollars. Not even close. The Cobalt is quiet natural clean comparatively. So quiet, and timing is more correct.  Real music. Then again I sit in the front violin chair of a great professional orchestra. So what do I know. Of course if budget is no issue then it’s Wadax anything. I am saving up."

@mr_bill 

i am indeed. Audio quest makes a cable mine is Audio quest “yosemite” they also make one “victoria”that is single ended which plugs into the cobalt and cobalt plugs directly into the USB slot on my Wadax Atlantis server. The 2 sided end of the cable plugs directly into the Pre amp aux 1 or whatever u want It was recommended that I try it because my friend who sets up audio systems uses it often. Basically I have found that so many dacs have so many clocks, timers and parts working that I end up feeling like I am listening to a machine and that especially the timing is off so it comes off to me as noisy. The cobalt is simple and quiet and fluid in a natural way. My friend (another musician) didn’t believe me so I did a blind test with Cobalt and 2 other 4k dacs I had. He chose the cobalt and was really annoyed that he did. Is it the end all DAC well I bet no. Until I can afford the Wadax Atlantis X coming out soon this will do nicely. It made the Schiit Yggy sound like noisy crap. I admit my streaming side of things is out of balance as I use hard-lined optical converting into a fancy SOTM switch powered by Nordost linear power supply which is great and Vahalla 2 ethernet cable into the Wadax and another Valhalla power cable powering the Wadax. What that extremely smooth and quiet streaming does is really really really reveal just what the dacs faults are. That is like  35k on the streaming end. I did all that over time one piece at a time to really hear if what i was doing mattered and made for a more natural and enjoyable listening experience.. And oh hell yeah it all mattered.  At the very least Cobalt is 300 bucks and crutch field has a full 30 day trial policy on products. Worth a try? The cobalt is no joke. I even have tyre 2 interconnects sitting on the floor unused because I can’t use them with this dac. 

As others have said, your current dac measures outstanding.  I doubt it is doing anything wrong.   I have read about using Amazon HD music with a PC and as I understand it, it can be challenging to get the best sound out of that software combo due to Amazon not taking control of windows and that leading to likely upsampling or down sampling unless a setting is manually changed at each reboot and for each changing in song sampling.  I may get more bang for your dollar by looking at a streamer.  The HiFi Rose (two versions) seems interesting and you can still your existing dac or use its internal dac.  plus, you can move to Qobuz, which should provide better source quality.  Others who know vastly more can comment.  

After trying a number of DACs - Chord Qutest (owned), Topping D90 (owned), Luxman DA-06 (owned), Audio Mirror Tubador III (owned), T+A DAC 200 (auditioned at home), Border Patrol (borrowed), Audio Research (GSi75 built-in DAC) and a few others -- I finally settled on Denafrips Terminator 2. IMO, it provides just the right balance between the so-called analog sound (think Border Patrol, AMT3) and the neutral/highly resolving sound signature (think Qutest, Topping D90, Benchmark, etc.). Plus the various filter options allow you to tailor the sound to your liking.

It does 'detail' as well as any other DAC I've heard but without losing that 'organic' touch that is usually provided by the analog-sounding DACs. I also feel that it provides the widest and deepest soundstage of all the other DACs that I have owned or auditioned. Lastly, the build quality and the overall fit and finish are incredible given the price.

Robshaw, just as a side note. I have the Tektons now and breaking them in. Running an original Bifrost Uber.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52050028169_4b31045d4d_m.jpg

I can't thank all all enough for you comments, suggestions and time spent answering my post.  I Have considered streaming with a designated streamer, however, very few offerings will support Amazon now. I currently use my Windows based laptop ( 2.0) supporting 24/192   I have a 20' 2.0 cable to my listening chair hard wired and also hard wired to the laptop an  Ethernet cable.  The laptop sits directly to my side on a table and I use a remote mouse to select my tracks. Of course a little   (big) glass of Bourbon sits near by.  As several of you have mentioned, I plan on Friday,  if my new Amp arrives ( ATI 6002 class A/B)  as stated will audition the current system and see how it sounds before making any additional DAC decisions. I will keep you all posted. Thanks again for all your time spent and your expertise. Robert    Ps  Really like my current Benchmark DAC, but, I also have a smaller system in my home that needs an external DAC   Thats why I'm looking.

You left out an important detail which bourbon

Instead of the Terminator 2, I have the Pontus ll and the Venus ll is supposed to be very good as well.

All the best.

JD

To answer Tomstruck: My preferred brand, when I can get it is a large bottle of Buffalo Trace!!    Thanks all !!!!

You might take a look at the PS Audio Direct Stream DAC.   Its FPGA based and they have a purdy good reputation for service.  They used to have a try and buy (satisfaction guarantee) and  I  think they will take existing equipment on trade if your interested in that.   

my experience with Digital Music is there are various capabilities/components required.  a DAC by itself can only get you so much.  How do you intend to use the DAC?

1. For digital streaming - Tidal/Quboz

2. For digital file playback – DSD/FLAC files

3. For CD/Video playback – connected to a TV or CD player etc.,

For the above use cases, I’ve explored system comprised of;

1. DAC (in my case upgraded from Matrix Saber Pro to Mola Mola Tambaqui, which is night and day. not even in the same league.  I evaluated the Chord Dave, DcS Bartok, and Tambaqui)

2. Streamer (in my case, I'm using a stock intel NUC running Roon ROCK and a custom fan-less, LPS powered Windows 11 PC with a JCAT XE USB Card, running JRiver. I’m evaluating Aries G2.1 and Grimm MU 1.  Grimm MU 1 connected to the Tambaqui using AES/BUE, not USB, is magical, where the built-in up sampler comes into play)

3. Up Sampler (in my case, I’m using Matrix X-SPDIF 2 USB Interface into the Matrix Saber Pro for a noticeable but small improvement in SQ.  In my Auditions, I have found the FPGA base up sampling in the Grimm MU 1, especially combined with the Tambaqui, is even better, for me, than the Chord Dave + M-Scaler)

4. Network Switch (in my case, I’m using the EtherRegion, not in production anymore, and I find the Network Acoustics ENO + Ethernet cable a clear improvement over the EtherRegion, but not sure either of devices will benefit the Grimm MU 1, as I have not tested that combo)

System Path for Roon/Tidal

Stock Intel NUC running ROON Rock, reading files from a Synology NAS and streaming from Tidal  Unifi Switch  ENO  Tambaqui Network port, with Ipad for control

System Path for Digital File Playback

Custom, fan—less, LPS powered Windows PC with local SSD file storage and m2.PCIE boot drive, through JCAT EX USB card running JRiver  Tambaqui USB port

System Path for TV

LG OLED TC  Tambaqui Optical Port

Tambaqui  MC2500 Pre-Amp  MC601 Monoblocks B&W 802 D2 + B&W D1 Sub

Hope that helps explain what I have learnt, a DAC by itself is only able to do so much and you have to look at the end-to-end flow of the system when matching and picking a DAC.

I had a Terminator and now have the Terminator Plus.  I found the best input to be the HDMI and use a Denafrips Iris DDC to change USB to I2S.  The Terminator 2 has the clock out to sync the DDC and it is worth it, but even without using the clock out the I2S is better than USB.  But, I did have a music server with I2S out that was not as good as it's USB, beware not all I2S is good.

The Terminator Plus is better than the original Terminator with any input.

part of the fun in this hobby is to scratch the itch... i am itchy like all the time ...😂

Well said sir!

Go to Audio Science Review and look at the test results. Choose a DAC within your budget with the least distortion and best linearity. No magicinvolved!

ASR is a great start-point.  Use this to short-list.  There is always someone who says try before you buy, which everyone knows anyway.  However, if you combine good measurements with good reviews and recommendations (and scratch that itch at the same time) then you will be fine.  

My current DAC is a Matrix Audio Sabre (from Xian). Ticks all my boxes: Superlative measurements, top ESS chip, does I2S, does balanced, does DSD, looks decent on the shelf. And after I bought blind: sounds totally neutral.

It is a ΔΣ so no scratchy scratchy sorry!

After trying a number of DACs - Chord Qutest (owned), Topping D90 (owned), Luxman DA-06 (owned), Audio Mirror Tubador III (owned), T+A DAC 200 (auditioned at home), Border Patrol (borrowed), Audio Research (GSi75 built-in DAC) and a few others -- I finally settled on Denafrips Terminator 2. IMO, it provides just the right balance between the so-called analog sound (think Border Patrol, AMT3) and the neutral/highly resolving sound signature (think Qutest, Topping D90, Benchmark, etc.). Plus the various filter options allow you to tailor the sound to your liking.

It does ’detail’ as well as any other DAC I’ve heard but without losing that ’organic’ touch that is usually provided by the analog-sounding DACs. I also feel that it provides the widest and deepest soundstage of all the other DACs that I have owned or auditioned.

May I ask how does the Luxman DA-06 compare to the Chord Qutest? The Denafrips Terminator costs close to twice the price of a used DA-06. I own the Chord QBD76 so perhaps I may relate to the differences between the Luxman and Chord. My main worry is the Luxman may sound too warm and rolled off in the treble in comparison to the detailed, wide, airy and 3-dimensional sound of a Chord.