has anyone else tried Lloyd Walkers latest tweak

Ptmconsulting
I would submit to you that the Walker cart. crystal changes are ANYTHING but subtle
profound and dramatic are more like it

Instead of paying $395 to Walker Audio I found a clear rounded quartz crystal and glued it to the front of my cartridge with a tiny dab of super glue. Of course I re-balanced the arm to account for the added mass. I've been playing records this way for about a month now.

No overtly obvious change, but things did indeed sound nice. So this weekend I decided to put it to the test. I pulled out 88 Basie Street, an album many of us are intimately familiar with for it's great dynamics, soundstaging, space, extension and great music.

(1) Sounded really nice with the crystal in place. Spacious, meaty, textured.

(2) I pulled off the crystal and re-balanced the arm. OK, so things definitely seem a bit flatter now. Less nuance. Less space. Less character. Absolutely a difference was heard.

(3) Glued the crystal back in place and re-balanced the arm again. Yup, there's that nuance, space and dimensionality.

Conclusion: so I guess this did make a difference to my ears, whether from actual RFI/EMI reduction or from just having added mass at the headshell or resonance dampening - I don't know. But I did hear it; subtle but there.

Like Acoustic Revive's tiny smokey quartz crystal for room walls, my own crystals for room corners, the Shun Mook Mpingo Disc, the tiny bowl resonators or various types, perhaps the Black Diamond Crystal acts via sympathetic vibration.

Dear Benjie: I'm only speculating. I agree that the bass can be " very clar " ( clean up ) but deeper?. Example stylus/cantilever pick up a 22 hz frequency please explain how do you think that the crystals can covert that 22 hz to 20hz to go deeper as you states? if that is happening then I don't want this kind of signal manipulation because I want the 22 hz frequency that is in the recording and not the " false " 20 hz one: got it?

Yes, I posted that I have to pull the trigger and experience it.

Amen!!

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Benjie
AMEN!!

Btw, I was using in the wrong way the MD clock and with out the spray.

I will make my tests again in the right way and will share with all of you the results here.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Perditty: As with the clock by Machina Dynamica I don't think that the cristal owners or reviewers were " deaf " and certainly ( with all repect ) no one of you are " crazy " and ceratinly listen what you say are listening.

I think that as with the MD clock I have to pull the triger with this cristals to attest or not if put me nearer to the recording/live music. We will see.

Anyway, thank's to brought here this Walker " snake oil " :)

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Benjie: Maybe a misunderstood by your part or a bad explanation from me because I'm not saying that the Walker cristals are a true snake oil because I have no first hand experiences to attest it and no I'm not against it but only trying to understand it.

Btw, the track you mentioned has not really deep bass, I think that the bass comes from a digital drum and in the track we can hear its " on porpose " precense. I think that what we hear there is more a low mid bass in the 335hz-45hz.

Now, I don't like those vibrations that you heard and hear with the cristals, I like more when you say: with out it there is no vibrations on windows. Please let me explain ( and of course that I can be wrong. ):

today my system has a very good bass management and thanks to two powered subwoofers goes really down but with one important characteristic: low low distortions down there and elsewhere the audio system performance. Years ago my windows vibrated and I was really proud because of that till I learned that those bass vibrations came from high bass distortions and not because bass music information.

Well, I just listened that J.Warnes track at 100 db SPL at my seat position with no single window vibration then I change the subs volume ( higher. ) and things gone more or less the same.

It's obvious that I can't say for sure but seems to me that if your windows vibrate with the cristals that's is not a good thing because could be only higher distortions and no true music improved information.

Perditty posted that he think bass goes deeper ( you listen the same. ) and my answer to him was that it can't go deeper because the stylus/cantilever pick up from the grooves depends only on the stylus/cantilever tracking abilities where cristals or anythinhg else can't help but in the other side if the cristals makes a clean up to the stylus/cantilever information then we can have a lower noise/distortions and clkearer and better music definition with wider dynamic range and music power and maybe this is what is happening but not deeper bass.

The other subject is if what we can hear through the cristals put us nearer to the recording nearer to a live music and I have no way to know it till I hear it.

I was unaware of these cristal tweak till now. I read it on TAS JV Walker TT review that in the latest version the TT comes with those cristals everywhere: headshell, underside the platter, the air bearing, the motor and in the motor controller too. I did not importance to that fact because seems to me was a Walker TT unique and not for any of us as now is in the market.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Rauliruegas
I agree $400 is not a drop in the ocean but you will be hard pressed the find a greater improvement for the price or five times more, [the improvement is that dramatic]
I hope you get a chance to hear it for yourself.

Raul, the Ultra version of the clock is the evolution of the original Clever Little Clock that came out around 9 years ago. The Ultra clock, unlike its predecessors, includes an anti-static spray that is applied to the surface on which the clock sits. To eliminate the effects of the clock take the clock outside, say on the back steps. It all depends on the system but most customers are easily able to hear the clock's effects when placed anywhere in the room. Also, please note the time displayed by the clock is set up to be later than your local time and should not be re-set. The clock is based on theories and products of PWB Electronics who used to have a clock a long time ago and who gave me permission to make the Clever Little Clock. The theory if how the clock operates involves "information fields" and how they can degrade our sense of hearing.

Cheers, Geoff at Machina Dynamica

Dear Geoffkait: Thank's to brought here your advise, maybe the clock ( during A/B ) was not enough far away. Of course that I will try " hard " again.

In my post I said that some kind of these tweacks could be system/brain dependent.

Makes any sense that to you? is it your product I own an item that always must works ( I mean always makes a difference. ) ?

Geoff, I would like to hear those differences if in true exist because that's why I bought it: your product has a lot of positive opinions from owners and reviewers so something must be happening down there ( I think'''' ).

Btw, my friend in USA ( where the clock was shipped. I live in México city. ) send me the item and I receive it along a bottle with a light green liquid that I don't now what is or even if you shipped with.

Please email me, be appreciated.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Perditty: /Lewm: I don't know wich is the weight of those cristals but for a significant change in the cartridge/tonearm resonance frequency we need over 5-6 grs., cartridge compliance has much influence on that.

Now, we have to speculate because Walker say almost nothing about.

Other side could be that attaching the cristal to the cartridge body or to the headshell can function as a some kind of " damper " changing the frequencies where the cartridge body vibrate/resonate or the headshell.

The only way to know if really function is first hand experience, there is no other way but 400.00 for make that test is not in my " book ". Maybe in the near future I could find the opportunity to hear it in a friend's system.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Perditty: Well you hear exactly what Walker stes in its site product information.

I'm not questioning what you think you hear but only asking if those improvements put us nearer to the recording or live event.You say: better and deeper bass definition. This is a serious and not easy improvement to achieve.

I think it can't go deeper, reading the Walker site he say that """ reduce static electrical noise at your cartridge and record while it is playing. """.

Reducing the static noise helps to have better definition: cleaning the overall grooves information the cartridge read it. That makes sense to me because the friction between the stylus/grooves develop that kind of static noise along the " room enviroment ". When we use the Discwasher static gun ( remember? ) to reduce static in the LP we can hear a difference.

Now, the subject here is that Walker does not explain yet : how it works to achive that static noise reduction and maybe this is why we could think that the tweak item is just another " snake oil ".

Other side is to know if the item function in the same way with any cartridge, I think that if there is a scientific foundation down there it must works with any cartridge. I don't know if is in that way and if not: why not?

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Rauliruegas
the transformation I heard was a profound increase in soundstaging, definition, bass [deeper and more articulate] and detail resolution all of which [I would say] is because of an improvement in the extraction of what is in the grooves. It seems at least two others have heard similar results.

One effect of putting a crystal, or anything with mass, on a tonearm or cartridge is to alter the... mass. This can always be expected to have an effect of some kind. So, on that basis alone, no wonder it is common to hear a "difference". Has anyone done the following control?: Take a pebble or something of equal mass and affix it where you have previously heard a difference with the crystal. Then play a record and listen. On other grounds, I have come to think that most low compliance LOMCs can benefit sonically from an increase in tonearm effective mass, compared to the effective mass of the typical modern high-end tonearm, most of which are medium mass, at best. Just a thought.

Rauliruegas, the only way to A/B the clock is to remove it entirely from the house or apartment, say on the back steps. Then listen to a favorite track to get an idea what the sound is like. Then bring the clock back into the room and listen again. Putting the clock in another room will not be sufficient to differentiate the sound.

Cheers, Geoff at Machina Dynamica

Over the years I try several " snake oil " items and sometimes I swared the item put my sytem in the top of the sky only for a short time latter falls down when I learned that the " improvement " were only other kind of distortions that made it more harm than helps in any way to be nearer to the recording. Other items were terrible for say the least.

My latest exercise with that kind of audio items is this one that I bought like two months ago at 50% off price:

http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina41.htm

I try in everyway and till today I can't hear any single difference with and with out it.

You can read there not only what's behind this item but customer opinions and even reviews of pro-reviewers where all of them hear or think that hear " marvelous " improvements, not me.

Of course that almost all those kind of items " efficiency " are system and " brain "/knowledge level dependent.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Perditty/friends: This is what posted Perditty:

+++++ " It's a crystal you put on either the tonearm or the cartridge that [I KID YOU NOT] transforms the sound! " +++++

transform the sound?. IMHO the main subject here could be not if that sound transformation like us or not but if that sound transformation is making honor to the recording proccess to what is really in the LP grooves.

Tha's it: if that sound transformation is right or wrong even if we like it ( this is not the main subject. )

Are we nearest to the recording or just changing to a different distortions level?

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

More mumbo jumbo and hand waving and still no real mechanism for the alleged effect. In things audio I'm willing to be a happy empiricist and accept something that enables my system to sound better. But to make pseudo scientific claims as to why that is so is just so much B.S.

That's cute, Dover.

So, what we have here, at least according to you, is a product that improves sound by producing electromagnetic radiation. Well, that's just great! :-)

ZYX Omega has a Lapis Lazuli sphere.

Lewm

when we just mount a crystal out in space on a cartridge or tonearm there is no electrical energy source to set the crystal into resonating,

In my view there are 2 possible sources of excitation for the crystal -
1. Any resonance generated by the cartridge when playing a record
2. Electromagnetic radiation from the cartridge generator.
Whether these are significant enough to excite the crystal - someone else can do the maths.

the EMI emission from the crystal can alter the behaviour of other EMI floating around in the vicinity

This is the basis for the "looney" brigade selling crystals for PC's to make you feel better. Whether it is a process of absorption of EMR or emission to change the fundamental frequencies of electromagnetic radiation is open to debate.
Remember a doctor was struck off by the medical association for suggesting smoking was injurious to health in the late 1800's and Florence Nightingale took 30 years to convince the medical fraternity that clean bandages and fresh air was helpful in wound treatment.
I try to keep an open mind in these matters.

Problem is piezoelectricity, by it's very definition, is the conversion of mechanical pressure to electrical charge, not EMI. Besides wouldn't one wish to reduce EMI rather than increase it? Hel-looo!
Geoffkait (Threads | Answers | This Thread)

Hel-looo
Where there is electrical charge generated there will be electromagnetic radiation. I should have used "EMR" instead of "EMI" perhaps.

Here is some light reading for you.
I'm a little crystal short and stout

I cannot believe the amount of B.S. that is passed off as science on this forum. Dover, where did you learn your science? I learned to do science as a grad student at Stanford. Maybe you could provide a derivation of this effect you claim starting from Maxwell's equations. Electromagnetic radiation covers a wide spectrum from ultra low frequency radio waves all the way up to the most energetic gamma rays. What is your proposed method of interaction? Absorption? Scattering? Since we are dealing with a collection of atoms in a crystal lattice a good grounding in Statistical Mechanics would be helpful. One would need to write out the partition function for such a collection to predict its behavior. As far as emitting electromagnetic radiation, that requires an oscillating dipole. Whether that is a radio antenna attached to a transmitter or a nitrogen molecule in the atmosphere whose electron cloud is polarized by the oscillating electric field (Raleigh Scattering, why the sky is blue) generated by light from the Sun. Maybe the crystal converts vibrations infrared radiation (heat). But so would a lump of coal. If you wish to make scientific claims you need to be specific and not just spout a bunch of mumbo jumbo.

Dover, You wrote, among many other things, "The piezoelectric properties of a quartz crystal make it usable as a resonator." With all due respect,and I do respect you, as I understand it, a quartz crystal (or any crystal) when energized by electricity will indeed resonate at a unique frequency. That's what makes it so useful in servo and clock mechanisms. Along with this resonance, RFI is emitted. In this case, as I see it, RF noise and EM noise would be synonymous, but,when we just mount a crystal out in space on a cartridge or tonearm there is no electrical energy source to set the crystal into resonating, and I don't know how "the EMI emission from the crystal can alter the behaviour of other EMI floating around in the vicinity", even if it were emitting EMI/RFI. These frequencies don't shut each other down or interfere with each other very much except to re-enforce each other. Otherwise, we would not have radio stations broadcasting on adjacent bands that don't differ much in frequency.

And, as Geoff pointed out, I don't think this is "piezo" effect, for which pressure on the crystal is required.

Wasn't there also a ZYX cartridge that had a spherical sapphire-colored something mounted forward of the body? Was/is that supposed to be a crystal?

I am beginning to think I have to try this stuff, even though I would say the jury is out on how crystals may work.

Yes, quartz crystals (of any color) do have piezo properties, as do a few other crystals to differing degrees. They have been used successfully in some power cords and some small black boxes when placed strategically in a system.

So I'm not surprised that they may work when located near a phono cartridge, which is a very sensitive instrument. But I don;t know what Lloyd's black diamond cut crystal has over a regular quartz crystal, other than it probably looks nicer.

So I tried attaching a reasonably sized clear quartz crystal to the front of my cartridge (a Transfiguration Temper). Of course, the arm had to be rebalanced and tracking force adjusted and such to compensate for the extra mass at the headshell.

The end result - I can't hear anything different, but then there is no way to easily A-B this tweak. It does look very odd, like a pimple on my cartridge face. I think the next step is to remove it, and readjust and see if I hear anything going the other way. Maybe some time this winter when I have time.

Dover wrote,

"The answer to your scepticism lies in EMI not RFI.
Anything that emits/uses RF will emit electromagnetic noise. Even things not designed to use RF if resonating can emit electromagnetic noise.
The piezoelectric properties of a quartz crystal make it usable as a resonator. Therefore the process is twofold in terms impacting the environment around the cartridge.
1. It absorbs vibrations and will emit EMI when excited or resonating.
2. The EMI emission from the crystal can alter the behaviour of other EMI floating around in the vicinity."

Problem is piezoelectricity, by it's very definition, is the conversion of mechanical pressure to electrical charge, not EMI. Besides wouldn't one wish to reduce EMI rather than increase it? Hel-looo!

Rauliruegas
all of what you suggest has been done with wife, children, and quests all who have no interest in high end audio and all have had to pick their respective jaws off the floor!
AGAIN the reason for the post in the first place was to see if anyone else [with whom I have no connection] has had a similar experience.
two and counting

Lewm -
The answer to your scepticism lies in EMI not RFI.
Anything that emits/uses RF will emit electromagnetic noise. Even things not designed to use RF if resonating can emit electromagnetic noise.
The piezoelectric properties of a quartz crystal make it usable as a resonator. Therefore the process is twofold in terms impacting the environment around the cartridge.
1. It absorbs vibrations and will emit EMI when excited or resonating.
2. The EMI emission from the crystal can alter the behaviour of other EMI floating around in the vicinity.
Now you could question whether this phenomena can be heard in an audio system, but the alteration of EM noise around the cartridge using crystals is basic science.

The fact that the (3, one assumes) black diamonds are used on the underside of Walker's record clamp suggests that vibration control is the mechanism, at least for the record clamp, perhaps for the cartridge, too. The fact that folks use crystals in areas where EMI/RFI is present doesn't necessary mean crystals work by absorbing EMI/RFI since, as it turns out, many of those locations also contain significant levels of vibration,me.g., power cord plugs, circuit breaker boxes, in proximity to small electron tubes, on top of speaker cabinets, on transformers, etc.

Dear Perditty: It's clear that you are an advocate Walker audio items starting by his TT.

I wonder how much of that biased " expectations " hear helps to listen " things " that maybe exist or maybe not?

Maybe could be good for you to bring to your place a person with out to much knowledge level about audiophile systems and invite him for a half an hour to listen with the cristals inside the system set up, after that take out those cristals and ask him ( with the same LP tracks. ) if he detected a difference for the better or worst or no differences at all.

Many times when we are waiting/prepared to " hear " something then we heard it even that there is nothing.

Our brain is unexpected: please listen to a track that you know in deep with your eyes closed and with your eyes open, after that make the same but with lights on and with lights off and ask you if in all cases you listen exactly the same.

Anyway, at the end of the day the important subject is that you think that you hear improvements and this is what it matters to stay satisfied with and not what other can hear or not.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

If it's a '57 300C, I want one.

Dear Phduncanson,
Your URL leads to a white paper on RFI. No one doubts that RFI can be a problem in audio reproduction and that eliminating RFI is desirable. If you read the paper yourself you will see that the only way in which crystals are connected to RFI is by the fact that devices that use crystal-referenced oscillators, like the wrist watch specifically mentioned, radiate RFI. The article does not support the contention that crystals shield from RFI.

I am prepared to believe that crystals are beneficial, but I remain to be convinced as to mechanism for that, and that it even has anything to do with RFI.

So, what is it, exactly, a piece off a 1950s Chrysler tail light?

Benjie and Tawa
thank you for your OBSERVATIONS as this was the reason I started the post in the first place!
Benjie you are so right re the second crystal!!
All of what you noticed when adding the second crystal
[the black diamond turntable upgrade already had a crystal on the headshell bridge, this is replaced by the second black diamond crystal] is what I heard with the second [I CAN'T EXPLAIN HOW IT DOES WHAT IT DOES BUY IT DOES DO IT!!!]
I'm afraid to even mention THIS but Lloyd recently sent me a room tuning kit composed of five copper pipe end caps [like from home depot] with a crystal glued to the inside bottom, they are put on your room walls and/or ceiling with blue tack and you get an expansion of imaging and soundstage that [IMHO] equals/surpasses five speaker surround sound! [I know, I know, pass me more Kool-Aid Jim Jones]

Crystal does work - i don't know how it does but i work. I have been experimenting and playing with crystal (mainly Diamond) for years.

I have put them in my Turntable Clamp, glue them to my motor but have not tried it on the Headshell yet. The better the Diamond, the pure the cleaner the sound.

Go borrow your wife, GF diamond or ear ring - just don't let them know what you are using it for :-) They will kick your butt if they know Hahaha

Dear Tawa, I guess your subjective opinion that the crystals make your system sound better makes it just "silly" to question how they might actually work, in the light of the claim that they absorb RFI.

I wonder if tensor ring technology could be applied to audio?

To all the guy's posting silly comments about Lloyd's Crystals,The jokes on you,I've had them for two days and the music has somehow been energised,lit from within.

Hello, the article you linked to actually doesn't link absorption of RFI to crystals, it only links emission of RFI to crystals. Sorry about that.

Hey ya’ll. Allow me to chime in. I’m just another philosophizer about crystals (at least for now)…no empirical evidence here! But have been trying many things in the past years to rid my phono set up of CB radio and faint long wave interference.

A video link to what this malicious interruption was like is on my blog: http://brooklynaudiophile.blogspot.com/

I gave up months ago. Then I explored Walker Audio’s website, talked to Mr. Walker, and bought his Eliminator-T. Thought I would start on the cheap. Problem was just about solved! I can only hear very faint remnants of that highly annoying RFI disturbance and only when the volume is turned up very high (past 2o’clock).

So that has inspired me to believe this Black Crystal may be what it claims… I hope to attain one for my next up grade.

Furthermore, for folks still interested in the connection between crystals and RFI/EMI, for your consideration:

http://www.edn.com/design/analog/4324311/RFI-keeping-noise-out-of-your-designs

Further furthermore, the Black Diamond seems to be relatively cheap and better looking when compared to these Swedish dudes:

http://www.coconut-audioshop.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=1834

peace

Somehow- I couldn't care less! Just enjoy your music!

Traditionally, only a few stones don't need clearing(citrine, kyanite, etc.). Unless this crystal is one of those, I would suspect that the stone would need time between listening sessions, in order to clear itself. EMI and RFI, would saturate the crystal, so that it's no longer effective. Is there any drop off in sound quality towards the end of a long listening session?

Dear Rodman, I assume that I am "Mr. L". If so, please tell me how your last post in any way addresses the question of whether an inert crystal (not one that is energized in any way) can prevent RFI from affecting one's vinyl playback. Yes, Al pointed out another way in which crystals are/were used in radio, but that does not resolve the issue. I read the relevant literature in my search. When a crystal is excited by RF, it does not remove the RF from the environment; it samples the RF selectively for its particular resonant frequency and then resonates, or not, as I see it.

Alert - possible double post

The really interesting thing about crystals is that they can absorb vibrations of many frequencies - including Very Low frequencies! As when crystals are used in room corners. I suspect focusing on non-audio applications like crystals in radios and watches is a little bit irrelevant to the whole audio applications thing.

You're welcome, Rodman. In connection with the mention of crystal-controlled oscillators in my post, I should of course also have mentioned the billions of quartz controlled watches that are out there.

Regards,
-- Al