So, what is it, exactly, a piece off a 1950s Chrysler tail light? |
Yet another high end manufacturer jumps on the crystal bandwagon. I thought crystals went mainstream about five years ago. |
Al, interesting theory. It's also possible the crystal does no such thing and is simply a very efficient vibration absorber. If it were absorbing RFI/EMI I imagine the crystal would have to attract the offending electromagnetic fields like a magnet. No? |
The word Crystal triggers the skeptical part of the audiophile brain, the part of the brain that figures anything new or not in High School textbooks must involve ritualism, psychoacoustics, psychological effects like expectation bias and placebo effect, subliminal advertising, new age mysticism, or hypnosis. I suspect it was for this reason Lloyd refers his little black thinggie as a "crystalline structure," you know, so as not to scare or upset the skeptics.
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Lewm wrote,
"I don't say it can't be true, but there must be some support for it in peer-reviewed scientific literature, if it is true. I can find none. Or are you also saying that science has nothing to offer in these matters?"
I suspect audio applications of crystals has not been peer reviewed. Any more than Mpingo discs, Schumann frequency generators, Shakti Stones, the Tice Clock, holographic foil, WA Quantum Chips, tiny bowl acoustic resonators, coloring CDs, and a bunch of other things have been peer reviewed. I suspect two reasons crystals haven't been peer reviewed are the science community is unaware of this application of crystals AND if they are aware of it they might be just a tiny bit apprehensive about tacking such a subject, if you know what I mean. If you think some organization such as AES is going to run out and sign up to look into crystals any time soon, I wouldn't hold my breath. |
I'm generally not one to blow my own horn but I was the first to use crystals in comprehensive ways for audio applications. My crystals debuted at the HI FI Show in London in 2003. As I showed ten years ago Crystals can be applied in many locations, including power cord plugs, RCA jacks of interconnects, near small vacuum tubes, room corners, on top of transformers, on top of speakers, on top of CD players, and many other locations. |
Lewm, I have a good feeling you will get to the bottom of this thing. That's exactly what I think we need, more folks that are determined to find out what in the heck is going on with these devilish little crystals. If you find something somewhere out there in cyberspace regarding crystals and their use in audio systems, I mean other than in clocks, please be so kind as to provide a link. You would think NASA, DARPA, IEEE, MIT, AES, ASA - somebody! - would have at least done some sort of preliminary investigation. I would even settle for the Amazing Randi. Lol |
Lewm wrote,
"So, we agree (because it's come to be my view as well) that crystals are unlikely to have a beneficial effect via blocking or absorbing RFI, unless you've changed your tune in the past 3 years."
You need to read what I said again. I didn't say crystals were unlikely to have a beneficial effect via blocking or absorbing RFI. What I said, or at least what i intended to say, was that in most locations audiophiles use them crystal(s) are acting as resonance control devices. I did not say, nor did I intend to imply, that crystals cannot act as RFI/EMI absorbers in certain locations. |
Microwaves and all manner of RF are everywhere in the room. In order for a crystal to have an audible effect wouldn't the crystal have to act like a giant magnet for RF? If the crystal worked by absorbing RF it would have to continuously absorb all the electromagnetic waves in the room, which are continuously entering the room from outside or being generated in some cases by electronics. Because the electromagnetic waves are everywhere in the room, if the crystal didn't absorb all or most of them, the RF problem would remain. It doesn't make sense and Judge Judy says if it doesn't make sense it's not true. |
I suppose it should be mentioned that Acoustic Revive's little QR-8 smokey quartz crystal is also recommended for the cartridge body, along with other resonance targets of opportunity. Of course, be wary of over dumping.
From Acoustic Revive's web site:
"Quartz Resonator QR-8 is not magic or occult. Reason why the sound improves by using QR-8 is that because, by placing QR-8 onto an agenda which causes resonance, the resonance frequency of agenda changes and it stops any resonation. Agenda such as plug, connector, parts, equipment switch, equipment housing, and door in the room, windows, wall, floor and ceiling resonates by its particular resonance frequency and by placing QR-8 will change the frequency and stops the resonance. But placing QR-8 to an agenda which does not resonate, adversely QR-8 may cause it to resonate or to over dump. So you have to be careful where you place the QR-8. You can check if QR-8 is causing the agenda to resonate or over dumping by listening to the sound." |
IMO the only way the crystal as it is used on the cartridge could operate by absorbing or dissipating RFI/EMI is if it acted like a magnet for RFI/EMI, pulling in the offending electromagnetic fields like a black hole pulling in matter beyond the event horizon. If the crystal did not pull in RFI/EMI then wouldn't it be safe to assume the electromagnetic fields would still be there? It makes much more sense that the crystal absorbs or dissipates mechanical vibration, inasmuch as even low levels of vibration on the cartridge body could be audible considering the sensitivity of modern phono cartridges. Of course, we don't actually know what the Walker black diamond is made of. I trust it's not really a black diamond. |
Just as a side note, the crystal in the Shakti Stone is part of an electrical circuit, albeit a passive one. |
Rodman, I agree with your point wrt the passive nature of Shakti however there is a significant difference between the Shakti Stone and a single crystal or even group of crystals we see in some audio applications. That difference is that for Shakti Stone there is a circuit that the quartz crystal is part of, whereas in the case of the black diamond crystal, assuming for the moment it actually IS a crystal (symmetrical atomic structure), there is no circuit.
Here's the brief description from Shakti web site:
"Through a unique application of quartz oscillators, a broad spectrum of RFI is attenuated. Being a piezeo-electric material, quartz is capable of converting an electric field into mechanical energy. In situations where quartz is employed in active components, the desired goal is to accentuate one resonant frequency to the exclusion of all others. However, within this stage of SHAKTI, quartz is used in a manner to produce the broadest sampling of frequencies to better absorb the somewhat unpredictable EMI. One of the reasons quartz has never been used in this type of circuit is because, as effective as it is as a converter of electrical energy, its very high Q means that most of the conversion to mechanical energy swiftly changes back to electrical. To overcome this problem, careful experimentation produced the necessary resistive element that is incorporated to substantially lower the Q. The result is effective dissipation within the first 1/2 cycle. This stage provides absorption/dissipation benefits for both external and self -generated sources of RFI." |
Alert - possible double post
The really interesting thing about crystals is that they can absorb vibrations of many frequencies - including Very Low frequencies! As when crystals are used in room corners. I suspect focusing on non-audio applications like crystals in radios and watches is a little bit irrelevant to the whole audio applications thing. |
Hello, the article you linked to actually doesn't link absorption of RFI to crystals, it only links emission of RFI to crystals. Sorry about that. |
The fact that the (3, one assumes) black diamonds are used on the underside of Walker's record clamp suggests that vibration control is the mechanism, at least for the record clamp, perhaps for the cartridge, too. The fact that folks use crystals in areas where EMI/RFI is present doesn't necessary mean crystals work by absorbing EMI/RFI since, as it turns out, many of those locations also contain significant levels of vibration,me.g., power cord plugs, circuit breaker boxes, in proximity to small electron tubes, on top of speaker cabinets, on transformers, etc. |
Dover wrote,
"The answer to your scepticism lies in EMI not RFI.
Anything that emits/uses RF will emit electromagnetic noise. Even things not designed to use RF if resonating can emit electromagnetic noise.
The piezoelectric properties of a quartz crystal make it usable as a resonator. Therefore the process is twofold in terms impacting the environment around the cartridge.
1. It absorbs vibrations and will emit EMI when excited or resonating.
2. The EMI emission from the crystal can alter the behaviour of other EMI floating around in the vicinity."
Problem is piezoelectricity, by it's very definition, is the conversion of mechanical pressure to electrical charge, not EMI. Besides wouldn't one wish to reduce EMI rather than increase it? Hel-looo! |
That's cute, Dover.
So, what we have here, at least according to you, is a product that improves sound by producing electromagnetic radiation. Well, that's just great! :-) |
Rauliruegas, the only way to A/B the clock is to remove it entirely from the house or apartment, say on the back steps. Then listen to a favorite track to get an idea what the sound is like. Then bring the clock back into the room and listen again. Putting the clock in another room will not be sufficient to differentiate the sound.
Cheers, Geoff at Machina Dynamica |
Raul, the Ultra version of the clock is the evolution of the original Clever Little Clock that came out around 9 years ago. The Ultra clock, unlike its predecessors, includes an anti-static spray that is applied to the surface on which the clock sits. To eliminate the effects of the clock take the clock outside, say on the back steps. It all depends on the system but most customers are easily able to hear the clock's effects when placed anywhere in the room. Also, please note the time displayed by the clock is set up to be later than your local time and should not be re-set. The clock is based on theories and products of PWB Electronics who used to have a clock a long time ago and who gave me permission to make the Clever Little Clock. The theory if how the clock operates involves "information fields" and how they can degrade our sense of hearing.
Cheers, Geoff at Machina Dynamica |
Like Acoustic Revive's tiny smokey quartz crystal for room walls, my own crystals for room corners, the Shun Mook Mpingo Disc, the tiny bowl resonators or various types, perhaps the Black Diamond Crystal acts via sympathetic vibration. |
