Question on FR 66s

Dear Suteetat: +++++ " I am kind of curious to try it but not sure what to try it with " ++++++

why any one of us could want to try an audio item other than " curiosity " ( that could means many things at the same time. )?

Seems to me that to achieve a better quality performance level in the audio system.

Now, how each one of us could knew or know about that quality performance level?

well some of us because " I like it more " and some of us because we know and are aware that the " new " item improved the system quality performance level because helps to lower system distortions.

The ones in the " I like it more " side are unaware of no other thing that that " I like it more " the other persons knows what they are talking about and why really the system improved its quality performance level. These people knows for sure each one audio link distortion levels in their system audio chain.

Where are you?, this question is important if and only if you really cares to listen and enjoy what in reality is in the recording what is in your LP tracks/grooves. Where IMHO the system main target must be: to be nearer to the recording and if you achieved it then you must be nearer to the live event, no question about/with out doubt.

How could you be nearer to the recording, nearer to what is recorded in your LPs?, plain and simple:

adding and loosing the less from the cartridge signal.

What we losed we can't recovery any more and what we add only can degrade the original cartridge signal.

What can you add?: all kind of distortions you can imagine, just name it and you can be sure you are adding it to the cartridge signal. There is no single audio link in the system audio chain that does not add several kind of distortions. There are not a single perfect audio link, no one and its quality differences is determined mainly by each one distortions levels ( everythinhg the same. ).

We can't do nothing about the recording signal degradations but we have some kind of " control " on the playback of the listening process where we can make a lot of things to lower those distotions to add the less distortions you can.

Money is always an important issue to achieve that target but the main issue is not money but KNOWLEDGE level and your SKILLs. Money is very important but is more important how you use your money to achieve that level of excellence in your system quality.

IMHO the first knowledge level step is to be aware of several of those kind of distortions and second level step to choose the audio items with the lower distortions you are aware. Of course that if you are aware only on the " obvious " distortions this helps you almost nothing, what is important is to be aware of distortions where other " normal " persons are unaware. Here your advantage.

The tonearm is a critical audio link and other than the LP it self and TT platter the nearest companion of any cartridge where is not only important both items be matched because resonance frequency in between but more important that the tonearm could add the lowest distortions you can and that generate not additional ones. IMHO the best tonearm ( everything the same ) is the best damped tonearm that " isolate " the cartridge from tonearm distortions, tonearm feedback and the like.

You ask for the FR66 and you are enjoying it as all the ones posted here. Not only that, here there are expressions as : " is in other Galaxy ", well as grosse those kind of expresion been as grosse is our ignorance level.

All in audio is about information against ignorance of that information. We can't be aware on what we don't know exist. That's why some of us still think that " earth is plane and not a circle " and this is not because we are stupid but because we have not the right information that's we are ignorant of facts.

I owned the FR66 ( that I sold it for very good reasons. ) and still own the FR64. I own and tested these and other several tonearms ( maybe 40+ different ones. ) for years and tested with hunderd of cartridges ( any kind. )/headshells and against other vintage and today tonearms. So IMHO I have information perhaps not 100% one but I can say enough.

Now, is there something wrong with the FR tonearm design?, what do you think?, you are right the design IM HO is a wrong one because does not take in count the cartridge needs it does not take in count added distortions and generated distortions that only degraded the cartridge signal. The FR is a simple one non-damped dynamic balanced design where it generate " all " kind of distortions you can imagine and where it does not damp any single distortion/resonances7vibrations coming from the cartridge/TT, arm board, tonearm it self and from the air.

Obviously you are unaware of the FR kind of distortions but through your experiences you writed about with out knowing it:

++++++ " My impression though is that may be Graham is still a touch faster, bass is very tight but....... FR bass is bigger, richer, more solid which may make it sound a tad slower ....... Mid range and high is significantly better than Graham though. Graham has lots of detail, very clean but always sounded a bit sterile, a Graham has lots of detail, very clean but always sounded a bit sterile, a bit lean for my tastebit lean for my taste .... FR also throw the widest soundstage.... " +++++

" bigger and richer " : read it as higher distortions that are not in the recording where the Graham ( faster and tight: this the way how the bass must be. ) tell you and give you more information more non-degraded information that is in the recording ( that you like it more the FR degraded information means only that: " I like it more " and you like it more because is more unaccurate and less neutral. Remember that the main target is to be nearer to the recording and when you are nearer to the recording you will enjoy for sure better than ever because music is accurate, neutral, dynamic and powerfull with a natural agresiveness that gives the music its unique characteristic: ryhtmum. ))

"
Graham has lots of detail, very clean but always sounded a bit sterile, a bit lean for my taste " +++, this means more accurate and neutral with lower distortions than the FR ones.

" Graham has lots of detail, very clean but always sounded a bit sterile, a bit lean for my taste " +++, this is another characteristic of higher distortions: as more colored are both frequency extremes as higher differences we achieve on soundstage perception.

I can go on on the FR distortions against other tonearms but you are experienced it. Again, that you like it more those colorations does not means is right but means faraway from the recording thank's to the FR wrong/faulty design. The 66 is worst that the 64 due that's longer and produce higher distortions.

Other main focus of distortions in the FR design is that the designer likes not only goes against gravity but again does not took in count the cartridge needs and LP reality and that's why the FR design is a dynamic balanced one where the VTF forced to set by a spring at the tonearm pillar a RESONANT spring that is no damped and those spring resonances are distoritons added to the cartridge signal and not only that: due to the LP imperfetions, non-flat surface, each tiny and single up-wave in the LP surface the VTF is incremented when in a static balanced tonearm design this happen in gentle way.

All those FR faults are only part of several other faults on its design like no-azymuth control and because its vintage age that internal wiring is another degradation cartridge signal focus. I have to say that even the FR bearing frinction is higher that adequate.

Other than today good tonearm designs you can compare the " ridiculous " FR tonearm design against designs that were designed by persons that really knew what they were designed, took for example the Technics EPA100-MK2 or AT/Signet designs or Audiocraft one ( where Graham came. ) or Lustre and many more. These people had a very high KNOWLEGE level and SKILLs that unfortunatelly FR did not and even today they have not.

Suteetat, please remember that we are talking here not what " I like it " but what is right or wrong and IMHO FR is plain wrong. I still own it because I want to know/remember how a tonearm design has not to be.

Of course that ignorants with the wrong information are all supporting FR but if their life time could be enough I'm sure all of them could improve on the subject.

regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Orsonic headshell?. Welcome to the distortion biggest party! where the star is the " fabulous " FR tonearm matched by its " dearest " couple orsonics! . Free entrance. Don't miss it: unique highest distortion party ever! Welcome!

some one even already put a today price for it: 14K. I'm sure is promoting " something " as always.

Btw, one of the gentlemans FR advocates here that started to learn put on sale and sold its orsonic headshells for very good reasons. He has information that all the orsonic advocated has not, that's all about.

As with tonearm we need a " dead silence " headshell too and I mean " dead silent " that " along the tonearm could kills every single kind of resonances/distortions/noises/vibrations coming from everywhere including the tonearm/headshell it self. FR extremely resonant non-damped build material as orsonic are the highest focus of cartridge signal degradation you can find out else where against any other tonearm/headshell combination.

In audio we are and have to make a lot of " compromises/Trade-offs " and in any compromise/trade-offs audio items we choose for advcantages against disadvantages in the item to choose it. FR/orsonic has no single advantage.

Anyway, I was in that " party " and fortunatelly learned all about.

Btw, it is pity and unfortunate that the " audio cancer " be so easy to expand/contaminate audiophiles almost as a " cancer euphoria ".

No one likes to talk about distortions, this word is rejected and a convict promoted by the AHEE and all of us have very low information on distoritons and unaware of them because we are acustom to listening what " we like " against what is right and what is right ( everything the same ) is that that has the lower distortions of everykind from somewhere.

For years I posted that the real main differences in between any audio system quality performance level belongs/reside in how low are overall system distortions in between.

Any one of us can analize each one audio system link to find out the each audio system link distortions and try to lower it. There are always paths to lower distortions and if we don't know how or which distortions we can ask for help.

As lower your each link system distortions as higher the system quality performance level, no single doubt about. As lower system distortions as higher the music enjoyment level. As lower the system distortions as higher the music emotions in your whole body.

IMHO lower/lowest distortions is the real name of the game in audio. Problem is that we learned, were teached and are accustomed to way higher distortions elsewhere the audio system so it is not easy to achieve that system lowest distortions target because the first step is our each one ATTITUDE to change our audio way of living where we could be the main obstacle to do it.

R.

Dear friends: The improvement system qualityperformance level is in your hands and in no ther hands: it is not in the audio item manufacturers or reviewers or audio dealers but in your own hands.

This ROUND BALL is in your side land and you are the only one that can play with.
Perhaps many of us know exactly how to play with squared balls, because that's what the AHEE teached to us and that's what we learned, and now we need to start to learn how we can play with a normal/vivid ROUND BALL.

One first step to play with this new BALL is to reject all what we learned and to reject all those advises coming from everywhere coming from square ball players.

So stay alert on those sqare ball players, they are easy to identify. Even are posting here and are proud enough to follow promoting that " square ball " when MUSIC only plays with ROUND BALL.

So, your turn.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Raul, With all respect, this is your constant mantra. You are very consistent in your position vis a vis "distortion". The problem is, each of us needs a Raul doppelganger to come into his home to tell us what is distorted and what is not distorted. I have no opinion of Orsonic or FR tonearms. I only know that, while you are not alone in your dislike of Orsonic headshells (possibly confusing and unwarranted, due to the Chinese fakes), the FR tonearms are widely admired by most everyone but you. I have to wonder what it is that they all like and which you find so distasteful. On the surface, I can see your point as regards "resonance" of the structure. There is no damping to speak of, except I think in the bearings. On the other hand, they are structurally very stiff and there are many different shapes involved, so I can imagine that resonance of such a conglomeration could be benign, because it might be spread out broadly over a wide range of frequencies. It's not just the guys you don't like who do like the FR tonearms; lots of your internet friends do appear also to like them.

Dear Raul, thanks for your very thoughtful post. I understand your point and certainly see why you think this way. However, I have to say that my priority is a bit different from yours and this should not come as a surprise since I like FR/Koetsu combination so much :)
I do think that Graham is a more neutral arm than Reed and since Reed and FR share some trait in common, I guess by default, Graham is more neutral than FR as well.
What I don't like (big disclaimer, according to my taste only!) for example, piano, on Graham, you hear the initial attack of the note very clearly and cleanly. However, you get a lot less decay from the string, even if pedal is fully engaged. I don't know if microphone, even placed over the soundboard/string bed, are not capable of picking this up or if they are lost once mixed in with other tracks for ambience etc. I practice on my grand piano pretty much daily and I am very familiar with this rich tone from a piano. On Graham, it just sounds drier, leaner like sustained pedal is not engaged or only half pressed. Reed and FR have these in spades. May be the data is not really there as much on recording and may be it is really distortion from the arm that give the illusion of this decay but I love it. I feel it is closer to what I hear every day on my piano. In fact, during the one year that I have Graham, I hardly ever play any piano recordings on Graham as I find it less bearable.
At the end of the day, we all have to make some compromise and pick and choose strenght of each stereo equipment and accept the flaws that appear the lesser evil to our ears. To my ears, to the kind of music that I love, I just find virtue and flaw of FR/Reed more to my liking and tolerable and since I am the one paying and listening to it and have to live with it, my taste rules in my living room :)
However, your point is well taken and I certainly take that into consideration when I audition a piece of equipment as well.
By the way, up to a couple of days ago, I only heard FR with Koetsu. I just mounted Air Tight on FR 64s/Micro Seiki and the result is quite interesting. It sounds a lot more different than when I have it on Reed/TW or my VPI Classic. I am still adjusting and fiddle with it so I am not quite ready to make up my mind yet but it sounds almost like a different cartridge to me. Good but in a very different way, go figure!