DV-50s vs Krell SACD Standard vs Denon 3910 mod

As an remote member of the aforementioned Chicago shootout gang, I feel most impressed by the degree of attention our little thread seems to have generated.
I might as well ask Kana813 where in the US he had the fortunate opportunity to listen to a Teac P0 player, augmented by a G0 external clock. The Teac Esoteric USA site does not list P0, D01, G0, G0S in the US catalogue because Teac America has sadly not seen it fit to import such devices.
As for our little thread being a testbed for sociological case studies, I am truly delighted Lazarus28 has found us worthy of such exalted academic attentions. Regretably sociology, being 80% untestable assumptions and 20% mental elucubrations ad-absurdum, does not qualify as a science.
It is fair to point out that SMILIN, AVGURU, JAYCTOY, yours humbly, and the rest of our little gang are not pretending to be questing for that almost biblical or alchemical TRUE TRUTH [version 4.1), nor that ideological clap-trappery epitomized by Zdanovian Socialist Realism--but rather for that ineffable sound which will uniquely delight us in so many differing ways. There are some of us who have found the most temporary solace in the APL mods, others in the DanWright ones. Others are still holding out, and hoping secretly that their true love (X-01) will still Reign Supreme--mayhaps we should aptly rename ourselves the 'Iron Audiofools" and invite Chairman Kaga to preside over our esoteric circle!
As for myself, I am yet another foolish digital audio grayhound, hopelessly chasing the electronic rabbit running ever faster along the digital rail. . . Arf, Arf, Arf!!!
Ponderously yours,
Aloysius Q. Schmaltzenstein Gavronsky

I might as well ask Kana813 where in the US he had the fortunate opportunity to listen to a Teac P0 player, augmented by a G0 external clock. The Teac Esoteric USA site does not list P0, D01, G0, G0S in the US catalogue because Teac America has sadly not seen it fit to import such devices.

However, (I hope these are the units you refer to), a rare Teac player with a Teac external clock was playing at CES in Jan 2004. Driving Avantgarde horns with the Avantgarde Model 5 Preamp/Integrated. I listened to "Black Coffee" off the Greta Matassa SACD and was totally gobsmacked.

Hopefully it will be there again this year.

Regards,

Lazarus,

AVGURU here, the originator of the DV-50 thread. I love you, man! Some of your comments were right on. You speak your mind like I do. I like your boldness and conviction of your words. The DV 50 is a great, great universal player.....the best one on the the market today and only bested by the Esoteric UX1...the new $13,000 model which I now have in my home and soon hope to face off against 711's latest APL 3910 with the modded clock. I still own my DV 50 and love it. It should have never been referred to as a "Radio Shack". Knowing 711 as I do, he is excitable and has apologized. Please accept it.

Most of the comparisons done on my thread (where other units have bested the DV 50) were primarily in redbook. I have not compared these other units to the DV 50 in DVD-A, DVD-Video, multi-channel SACD, etc. Only a limited amount of time was spent comparing 2 channel SACD playback and those results are not yet conclusive. So in my opinion no one can claim that these modded units are better than the DVD-50 until a full shootout in all formats is conducted.

There is no other universal player on the market today (made by a major manufacturer...i.e Pioneer, Denon, Bel Canto, McCormack, Krell, etc) that's better than the DV 50. In that arena the DV 50 still reigns. However, if the these modded units can duplicate their redbook performance in the other aforementioned formats they will be superior to the DV 50. However, that is a BIG IF. Some of these modded units lose their multi-channel or DVD-Video capability after being modded. Most don't allow for balanced connections. All of this has to be taken into consideration when determining what's the best.

Lazarus, what I have come to find out is that the major players (Esoteric, Krell, etc) only spend 1/5th to 1/6th of retail on actual mfg costs and overhead. The DV 50 retails for $5,500 and Esoteric's total investment (parts, labor, marketing, advertising, etc) is less than $1,000. That's a shocker but its true...trust me. A high end dac is only $20. A power supply (transformer)about $30. The list goes on and on. Capacitors, caps, wiring are even less. When you consider the retail and distributor mark-ups (which I know but won't reveal) the manufacturers mark-up is at least 300% and probably as high as 500%.

With the modders, they can pick the best parts available on the market (its actually in their best interest to do so as they are in intense competition with other modders and there is a much smaller pool of customers willing to buy modded units). Additionally, they have nowhere near the overhead of the major mfg's so most of their mark-up is
on the labor side.

So you can buy a mid-fi unit that's outfitted with the best parts available and modded to the max (just how you like it)for around $3,000-$4,000 and probably less if you know how to negiotiate. Actually, these are not even mod's..they're total redesigns. So its really not a Denon or Pioneer or Sony..its a new unit only using the shell.

As you can see, the potential exists to get much more value for your money and a better product when buying from the better redesigners. And that's why these units have the potential to really outperform the major market product. The major mfg's are making a product with an eye on costs and profit first. Performance criteria is a distant 2nd, 3rd or fourth consideration. This is not true with all mfg's but with many of them.

Since all of these mfg's follow the same mark-ups and use the same distributers and buy parts from the same companies (Burr Brown, Crystal, Motorola to name a few) the quality they can provide at a given price point really doesn't vary much from mfg to mfg.

Esoteric hit the jackpot with the DV 50 because they were the first ones to correctly determine that interest in an audiophile level universal player was strong enough that consumers were willing to pay a much higher price than what other mfg's thought the market would bear for a top of the line universal. Most of the universals before the DV 50 were around $2,000-$3,000. The extra $2,500 Esoteric charged allowed them to make a better product without compromising (and probably even increasing) their almighty profit targets.

And unfortunately, the only way Esoteric can substantially improve upon the performance of the DV 50 (and again maintain if not increase their profit margins) is to now charge $13,000 for the UX1 and X01. They're probably targeting a 500% profit margin on these units rationalizing that even if they reach only 30-40% of the volume they had on the DV 50 they'll still make out like fat cats.

I'm willing to bet the modders can produce units that exceed the performance of the UX1 and X01 for about $5,000-$6,000. I may even find in my continued shoot-out that the APL or Modwright units already exceed the performance of these Esoteric units. And this is the part that makes me angry...that we as audiophiles have to pay so much money to appease a mfg's over-zealous and greedy profit margins when similar or better quality can be had for much less. To
add insult to injury, Esoteric's warranty is only 1 YEAR
whereas I'm sure all of these mod guys would be willing to back up their products over the life of the unit.

Don't get me wrong...audio is not any different than other industries (jewelry, automobiles, etc) that also have outrageous profit margins. So I don't want to come across as unfairly picking on this industry when there are others that are worse. But I take the same approach in any consumer good that I buy...know the mark-ups, determine what's a good value and buy accordingly. If it weren't for the fact that I know the profit margins and have developed relationships with dealers that allow me to get great deals I'd probably buy all my audio equipment from people like Dan Wright or Alex.

Lazarous, Enjoy your DV 50 and know there is no other universal mass produced universal that can better it. But also take your own advice and give a listen to some of these modded units. You might be surprised at what you hear!

Enjoy the music,

AVGURU

Since 711smilin has the Exemplar/Denon 3910 which much impressed him, was it included in the shootout? If not, I think you guys missed an opportunity to hear the best universal player.

I am mildly interested in shootouts, but think systems can greatly affect preferences. For example, an unduly bright system may sound better with a rolled off player. Better than a year ago, many of us heard a shootout at the VSAC show in Silverdale. The Exemplar 2900, Alex's Phillips SACD1000, Dan Wright's Sony, and Allen Wright's Sony 3000 with Level 4 mods were included. The room was terrible and there were too many humans in the room dampening all dynamics. One could draw no real conclusions for this shootout.
But Alex's unit is of some interest to me, although I already own an Exemplar/Denon 3910 which has only 150 hours on it. It is already clearly superior to the Exemplar/Denon 2900 which in my experience was clearly more open and dynamic than the Teac DV50 and the Teac Esoteric UX-1 without the atomic clock.

TBG, it is my understanding that APL 3910 was in fact included in the shootouts. That would have been 711smilin's unit. Though, as I recall, at that time the unit did not include the masterclock that Alex just lately added to 711smilin's unit. So in my view, fresh rounds of shootouts among the latest APL 3910, Modwright Sony 999ES, and Teac UX-1 and X-01 are in order. Please note that the ModWright does not support a masterclock at this time. It will be interesting to determine if this feature makes a decisive difference.