Why vinyl?

03-14-08: Ojgalli asked:

"And a related question that goes out to all.

Do LPs from an analog master sound better than LPs from a digital master?"

Generally I think the answer is "yes" so long as we're talking hi rez digital, such as 1-bit DSD @5.6mHz. Some early digital cannot be rescued, but the good stuff, with good mics and good mastering are incredibly good. Even the best analog tapes have tape noise and or tape compression. However, there are so many great, historic and well done analog recordings that just can't be ignored.

Some of the very best recordings I have are DSD-mastered SACD or DVD-As in two-channel. These rival my very best D2D analog LP, which tend to blow away most, but not all, of my analog tape mastered LPs. We I make DSD archives of my D2D LP at 5.6mHz, I can't tell them from the original disc.

Dave

Inpepinnovations,

I think it is both.

On an anlogue mastered tape the sounds, frequencies and harmonics are left 100% in analogue form from the moment the tape recorded them to the cutting of the master disc and the pressing of vinyl. Every step of the chain can add or detract to the sound and colour. Poor master disc cutting will affect the sound but good master disc cutting will eventually give you a superior mold to press vinyl from. Poor vinyl material will affect the sound good vinyl material will preserve sound better. A better turntable, tonearm, cartridge all set up and in proper working order will retrieve sound from the groove better.

I think a cut master from a high quality say 24/96 digital master will produce a good vinyl LP. The cartridge will track it well if the cartridge is well made and in good order. The cartridge will possibly add to the harmonics of the sound and that will affect sound.

Digital will not be perfect either. Mix downs to errors in transfers and all generations of digital transfers and production have bit code errors. Quality of components and ultimately quality of the discs and CD players will all affect sound quality of the music. The saying that all CD players sound the same is untrue. Not all CD discs themselves are same quality. So no matter what you used analogue or digital by the time the consumer gets the product it has been affected by the chain of production. Some cases worse others not be they both CD or vinyl including a cd from analogue or digital masters or be it a vinyl LP from a digital master or an analogue one.

In the end I think an LP from analogue masters will sound truer to what the music should sound like than one from a digital source or from a CD made from the analogue masters will likely sound better than digital masters. It is all degree of compromise to the consumer. This is why some listeners are fine with $29 CD players and with MP3 sound when others spend thousands on a CD player. This is why some consumers are fine wit $79 cheapy turntables but others will spend thousands.

I think the best source for quality recorded sound is better to best analogue reel to reel machines. But are not as practical for most consumers. Vinyl will be less accurate but will vary from deck to deck because of how it all works. Digital is chock full of possible compromises and other errors. In the end an LP is likely more accurate overall and more natural to our ears than a CD. A digital LP will likely be more pleasing than the CD version because the few inaccuracies it may add will more likely be heard as more pleasing to the listener where as the inevitable inaccuracies in CD playback are nothing but negatives to the listener. I hope this all makes sense.

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Why vinyl? Very simple, everything about it is more fun and allows for more interaction between the listener and the source.

Example, the album cover. It holds the record, same as a cd case but, can also be used in frames as wall art. I often read the backs of albums, I never read the folded up liner notes that come with cds.

Cleaning the record can be a art and meditation in itself. I know it sounds stupid but, at this time you are actually developing a relationship with the vinyl. You are caring for it and examining it. Who handles digital?

Once playing the record you actually listen to the whole record. No temptation to skip tracks. I can't count how many times I have discovered something new in the music because I couldn't skip a song. Plus, getting up and flipping the record keeps the listener alert.

The record player is a whole source of entertainment in itself. They are interesting to look at. They can be almost infinitely "tweaked" to adjust the sound. Just the arm itself has many features that can be tuned to change the sound. Not to mention different cartridges. For a audiophile, playing with and admiring the equipment is part of the deal. I just don't think any of us get the same thrill from looking at even the best cd box as we do from looking at a exotic turntable.

The debates about which sounds better is a waste of time. The research is in, they data has been well looked at and discussed to death. Sometimes a particular record will sound better than it's digital counterpart. Sometimes a cd will be preferred.

All that matters is that, for some of us, the analogue chain has a very high fun factor. Others prefer the never leave the couch, hold the remote, aim at box, factor of cds. Most of us like having both available plus, some type of digital server for when all you want is continuous background music.

That's "why vinyl?".

03-14-08: Les_creative_edge said:

"In the end I think an LP from analogue masters will sound truer to what the music should sound like than one from a digital source or from a CD made from the analogue masters will likely sound better than digital masters. I...

I think the best source for quality recorded sound is better to best analogue reel to reel machines. But are not as practical for most consumers. Vinyl will be less accurate but will vary from deck to deck because of how it all works. Digital is chock full of possible compromises and other errors. In the end an LP is likely more accurate overall and more natural to our ears than a CD. A digital LP will likely be more pleasing than the CD version because the few inaccuracies it may add will more likely be heard as more pleasing to the listener where as the inevitable inaccuracies in CD playback are nothing but negatives to the listener. ..."

I don't understand why you're concluding these things. We're talking about digital masters, not CDs. If you'd heard a 1-bit DSD master at 5.6MHz I think you'd have a hard time saying that reel-to-reel is "better" or "more accurate".

I think that the best of both analog and digital are very, very good. With 24/192 and soon-to-be widely available 32-bit, or maybe even consumer 1-bit DSD (really already here in the form of the Korg MR1000 DSD recorder for around $1000) the analog advantage has pretty well disappeared, at least to my ears.

As an amateur recordist, the convenience of 130 dB of dynamic range, lack of tape noise or compression is hard to beat.

Dave

130db dynamic range is unusable in any home listening or likely any other venue environment. The typical home will have a general background noise floor of 20-40db. If you go with 130db the max. dynamic range to be above the background noise floor will have to be a volume of 150-170db. Totally unrealistic even at rock concert levels.

I'm not against a good digital masters for vinyl but the fact is probably 99.9 % of all vinyl has been made with analogue masters.

Usable digital mastering today has been corrupted by lousy techniques aka: the LOUDNESS controversy and in reality the 16 bit digital format including the CD has more than enough dynamic range, too much really for anything but the most dynamic classical recordings. Rock, Pop, Country, Jazz etc. all have much lower levels of dynamic range, enough for vinyl to cover fair enough and the CD too as well. It's about resolution and the 16bit digital was borderline. 24/96 will give you a much better resolution capacity but reel to reel analogue covered all the resolution needed for decades now and the LP did so as well. All formats I list here had enough dynamic range for as a source for home listening. Commercial digital mastering of most music today has been destroyed by the compression to get max loudness. Too bad the industry squandered the one true superior trait 16 bit digital had over any analogue, dynamic range.

vinyl had at min 60db on lesser quality discs and 75+ db on the best discs made

R to R with Dolby NR had a similar dynamic range between 65-75 db using DBX it was over 80db

analogue cassettes were 55db with cheap tapes and no Dolby B to 75db witch Dolby C or Dolby S, again over 80db with DBX.

16 bit digital of course maxed mathematical a 96db.

But it is resolution that hurts ordinary 16bit digital and is mostly (arguably) overcome by 24bit digital. Resolution and harmonics were never an issue with good quality analogue gear. Only distortion and bottom line signal to noise ratio was. With the proper use of Dolby or DBX that was mostly gone and with better grade tapes even distortion was not a factor anymore.

I'm glad that 25+ years after digital mastering and the CD that digital has a venue for better sound now especially to make new vinyl with but the general consumer is happy as pigs n' s**t with MP3 or iPod garbage. Go figure by the time digital began to get it truly right nobody really cares except us here who want and enjoy good quality music sound be it quality analogue or digital on CD, downloaded or to make great new vinyl with.