2. analog
  3. 1141303041

Questions about SACD vs.analog for classical music

I've just ordered a VPI Scoutmaster. A rather impulsive decision made at just the point when I was about to have my Sony 9000es modded. Not quite just at the point, but right after I removed my Hw-19jr/pt-6/Glider/blackcube rig from storage in order to get the parts ready for shipping to they new owners. I had what i thought would be my last night listening to the TT, after a several year hiatus, and you know what? There was that organic something, that harmonic coherence in certain recordings that I noticed only in the very best SACDs. In some of my LPs, that 'present' or 'real' feeling exceeded all but one or two of my SACDs (only the Rite of Spring on Telarc, a few tracks from the telarc classical sampler 2, and one other were superior to anything I heard on the VPI). OK, the SACDs were obviously cleaner sounding and more extended (I was using Stax sr-lambda phones) except when compared to a couple of the highest quality analogue productions lps I own, but it got me thinking: hey, if my humble jr. sounds this good now, I can only wonder how good one of the purportedly much improved high-end rigs would sound. The Sony mods would have cost upwards of $1300, but selling my jr. and lumping all that dough together and allocating it to a renewed involvement in analog looked, well, promising.
So I ordered a new Scoutmaster (at substantial discount) with the JMW-9 arm and am now by the way researching my options for cartridges and preamps. I've sold my blackcube, but have a Jolida JD-9 on load from a dealer, which sounds very nice with the jr. (the sold TT about to be shipped) - very vivid and harmonically satisfying, well articulated, etc - though it's not as quiet as the 'Cube and I even can hear some AM radio coming through my phones when I turn up my linestage preamp volume. But here I digress.
My main reason for starting this thread, aside from having some assorted questions about carts, preamps, and the like, is to ask for some objective and subjective opinions regarding the decision I just made. Bear in mind that my main interest is classical music, especially chamber (esp. string quartets, trios, wind quintets, etc) and piano with some orchestral, followed by classic rock and some Blue-Note era jazz. The SACD route seemed promising at first, and I told myself that, even though there were only a smattering of sacd recordings for many of my favorite classical performers (eg. Elly Ameling Soprano, Yo-Yo Ma, Rubinstein), there were so many truly talented lesser-knowns on the sacd scene (e.g. pianist Freddy Kempf on BIS, Csaba and Heisser on Praga digitals, and of course Paavo Jaervi on Telarc) that I deemed my chances of attaining long-term satisfaction with purely sacd (and a little redbook on the side) to be very good. Especially after sacd mods. As for classic rock, the SACD of the Police Synchronicity just blew me away (through Sennheiser HD600w/cardas cable).
But THEN it occurred to me that the only way to possibly hear my very favorite string quartet - the Vegh Quartet - in better than redbook fidelity was through vinyl. Ditto for numerous other performers who will never appear on sacd. Then of course there's always the Beatles, Stones, Jerry Garcia and others to sweeten the deal for vinyl. By the way, I sold my Ikemi redbook player in order to open up some new options and try something new. Even my girlfriend almost cried to see the Ikemi go, her having been converted just enough to an audiophile that she could absolutely see someone justifying having spent almost four grand on a source component (even a non-disc changer)
So what do you guys think? When my scoutmaster arrives, am I in for some visceral thrills and deep musical connection? I know that it's also dependent on the rest of my system, and so far I've narrowed cart choices down to the Lyras and the Shelters, leaning heavily towards the former. As for phono preamps I'm considering the Linto, Ear 834p mm/mc, and a few others including a modded Jolida JD-9 or something along those lines.

Is the scoutmaster, fitted with a $1000+ cartridge and a similarly priced phono preamp, going through Cardas golden reference into either a Bryston B60 integrated (and then to Sennheisers or B&wdm603) OR into a Stax srm-t1 tube driver of my Stax electrostats, going to 'knock my socks off' as suggested by Mike at VPI yesterday? How close can I get to SACD (especially to the 'pure DSD') fidelity through this setup? I know speed stability and noise floor will be drastically improved, giving tones accuracy and timbral accuracy, and i expect bass to be better and overall macro and microdynamics as well BUT... am I going to be able to achieve some of the same absolutely organic, sparkling, and pure sound of some of the better DSD recordings? What about the musical clarity per se of redbook, in particular when listening to string quartets and the like? Will I get a 'clean' sound in the tonal sense, not overly dark, but a sound that seems right? What about the upper octave of piano?
I once read an article long ago (i believe it was in stereophile) in which the author admitting to prefering cassette tape over vinyl due to it having cleaner and more pitch accurate upper octave reproduction. That was then, this is now. What do you guys think? (last time I'll ask that, I promise!)

Ted
tedd1
inpepinnovations1e75
395 posts
 
Eldartford, my decoder is used only to produce two rear channels signals by taking the pre-amp output (parallelled with the output to the front speaker amplifier), decoding it and using only the rear speaker outputs to the rear speaker amp. The PL1000 is in the tape loop of the pre-amp and I have found that there is no difference in the decoder's performance with the PL1000 in or out of the circuit - there is always some kind of rear channels signal generated, varying with the setting on the decoder, of course. Of course if the preamp is put into mono, the decoder doesn't produce much output. That is how, BTW, I find the 'null' on my balance control on my pre-amp. Any noise reduction or dynamic recovery done by the PL unit is passed along to the decoder and doesn't seem to affect the decoders work (except it is quieter and also more 'dynamic'), as far as I can tell, but then the signal is just ambiance 'noise', as you say, but still adds 'dimension' to the music, if not played back too loudly.
I rarely use the noise reduction section, but the Dynamic Expansion section is always on for vinyl and tuner listening. No need for PL1000 for digital, naturally!
Also, listening to the rear channel signal alone, is a very good method of positioning the antenna for the tuner - least distortion heard (or conversely, clearer signal), the least multi-path!
Salut, Bob P.
eldartford
4,262 posts
 
[email protected] control signal for the PL1000 functions is L+R. To the extent that rear channel noise spectrum is similar to front channels your hook up will work. What I am talking about is putting a PL1000 between the decoder and the rear amps. That won't work unless you invert one of the rear channel signals. But if you do this inversion the PL1000 is controlled by the LR+RR signal, which is optimal.

All your comments about finding balance null are familiar. I found that tone controls could also be tweeked up this way.
inpepinnovations1e75
395 posts
 
Eldartford, thanks for clearing that up!
Salut, Bob P.
tedd1 OP
36 posts
 
This doesn't even look like the same thread any more. Since I''ve been gone, my innocent little question about various Agon members' *personal* experiences listening to classical SACD versus those listening to the same on vinyl has apparently spawned a panoply of continuations into the realms of the theoretical and elsewhere, with much proselytizing going on on several fronts.

For what it's worth, my scoutmaster/ear 834p/Lyra Helikon/Stax/Cardas Golden Ref. rig is finally up and going, blowing my mind continuously. Rigtht now I'm like one of those rats who keep pawing the release level on the little narcotic pellet dispenser continuously until its mesolimbic reward system is stoked at all times via every efferent. That's my one bit pseudo-intellectual gibberish for the evening. Now back to some SACD walloping colored euphony (after all I am using all tubes, from preamp to head amp)

When my feel-good chemicals have been expended to the point of a short period of neurochemical vesicular replenishment being on order, then perhaps I shall drop by and share some whining and pining.
robm321
932 posts
 
lol Tedd1 - great system I'm jelous.
More to discover