Where do classical vinyl records get their rumble from?

@richardbrand 

"Recording technology has come a long way in the last 50 years. 

I am glad you have no rumble.  I believe you posted elsewhere that you have no surface noise either.  You have a truly miraculous system.

Of course, none of the works you cite contains the dynamic range of a Mahler symphony and these days vinyl has digital to compete with."

Yes, and any half-baked argument will do won’t it Richard, especially when you deliberately take my statements out of context. I’ve commented extensively about handling vinyl and simple, inexpensive methods of cleaning records elsewhere in the forum that you deliberately ignore but only focus on the ones that really don’t bolster what you’re disputing in the moment. You mention advancements in recording technology when you preface this thread on a recent Deutsche Grammophon recording that by your accounts contains rumble and I just simply pointed out multiple examples of very old ones that don’t. Anyone can read the inconstancies in your incongruent arguments. Why is digital suddenly a fallback position when we are discussing vinyl? Also, attacks on my spelling and grammar? Hm?

I will go on to say that yes there are advancements such as superior stylus profiles over the biradial elliptical which tracks very close to the surface of the record much like a spherical where most of the groove imperfections are and it’s only real advantage is it’s ability to resolve high frequency information slightly better but is just as susceptible to pick up surface noise as well. Line contacts, Micro lines and Micro ridge ride deeper and contact more pristine groove surface significantly reducing noise.

The bulk of the noise that accumulates on vinyl over time is the result of lackadaisical handling and improper hygiene. Record noise and wear are not an absolute and there are countless examples of vinyl’s permanence as a sound storage medium dating back to it’s beginnings in the late 1940s. I believe I’ve said this elsewhere too.

You want to hear dynamic range then get a copy of this Buddy Rich - Just In Time - The Final Recording on Gear Box records. Buddy has a very long solo on the third disc that perfectly demonstrates dynamic range and the incredible low noise floor vinyl is capable of in a live setting! 

faustuss -

"1kHz/5cm/sec"

Yeah, well beat me about the head!

@richardbrand 

"That’s the standard for measuring output voltage of a cartridge."

Copied from Shure PDF leaflet. You’ll note that Shure expressed trackability as cm/sec. I don’t see 1000 Hz there do I?

V-15 Type 111 and V15 111-G
Typical Trackability (cmlsec peak recorded velocity at 1 gram in
Shure-SME Tone Arm). Reference: Shure TTR 103 Laboratory Test
Record.
400 Hz-26 cmlsec 5000 Hz-35 cmlsec
1000 Hz-38 cmlsec 10,000 Hz-26 cmlsec
Frequency Response (using Optimum Load): 10 to 25,000 Hz
Output Voltage: 3.5 mV per channel at 1000 Hz, 5 cm/sec peak recorded
velocity. Output from each channel within
2 dB
Channel Separation: Minimum 25 dB at 1000 Hz
Minimum 15 dB at 10,000 Hz
Tracking Force Range: '14 to 1'14 grams
Optimum Load: 47,000 ohms resistance in parallel with 400 to 500
picofarads total capacitance per channel. Load resistance
can be up to 70,OM) ohms with almost no audible
change in frequency response. Total capacitance includes
both the tone arm wiring and amplifier input
circuit. (Most amplifiers and tone arms meet this
requirement.)
Inductance: 500 millihenries

faustuss -

"why does everyone equate warp information with rumble?"

@richardbrand 

"That was what you originally posted, followed by"

"Hopefully you have only one warp per record, so it will have a fundamental frequency of roughly 0.55-Hz, which is in the wow range below 6-Hz.  A bit higher up comes the flutter frequency range of 6-Hz to 100-Hz.  Meanwhile rumble is usually below 30-Hz.  Of course the Japanese measure these things differently."

@richardbrand 

I wasn’t asking and another example of how you like to take things out of context. My actual remarks. -

"After some thought I attempted to edit my post for grammatical errors but @pindac was about to commit his comments which superseded my edits before I posted them. So here they are.

...it will never work if the cartridge’s compliance and mass wasn’t chosen for the tonearm’s in the first place. The resonance will forever be too low or too high which will either accentuate warp information if too low or affect tracking and bass response if too high. 

Secondly, why does everyone equate warp information with rumble? Rumble is a mechanical artifact of a poorly designed, machined or damaged main bearing and as the platter spins, the noise generated is transferred up through the platter and the vinyl and is then picked by the cartridge and often sounds like a faint cyclical roar in the background during quieter music passages. I used to think it was groove roar until the quality of the turntables I was using improved and had much better fabricated main bearing’s, thus the phenomenon became forever inaudible."

@richardbrand 

Obviously, the previous post doesn't directly address your DS Audio but it appears you have a vendetta and would prefer not to have the competition. Your BMOC days ended generations ago.

@faustuss 

"1kHz/5cm/sec"

You will be astonished that I did not have to look anything up know that this refers to the standard for measuring cartridge output voltage, and to see the confusion in your thinking when the actual subject is dynamic compliance!

Output voltage has no direct relationship to trackability, either 

Copied from Shure PDF leaflet. You’ll note that Shure expressed trackability as cm/sec. I don’t see 1000 Hz there do I?

Just a wee way down in the very same post you quote (my emphasis)

Output Voltage: 3.5 mV per channel at 1000 Hz, 5 cm/sec peak recorded velocity

If ignorance is bliss, you should be supremely happy 

@faustuss 

The bulk of the noise that accumulates on vinyl over time is the result of lackadaisical handling and improper hygiene

My complaint about the Deutsche Grammophon pressings of Mahler 2 relates to brand new records, taken straight from the sleeve, ultrasonically cleaned along the lines prescribed by @antinn, and played without further handling.  The recording was made in July 2022 and released in February 2025, on CD, vinyl and as digital files.  I suppose I should get the Dolby Atmos version ...

Deutsche Grammophon Releases Recording Of Landmark Sydney Concert