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Where do classical vinyl records get their rumble from?

Recently converted back to vinyl from silver disks, I am struck by how much rumble seems to be inherent in the new and used vinyl I am buying.

A case in point, is a recent Deutsche Grammophon (DG) recording (487 7484) of Mahler’s Second Symphony made at a live performance at the Sydney Opera House (I was there).  The first set I bought was amongst the dirtiest pressings I have ever had, but the second set was much improved.  However, there is a persistent rumble whether played on my Holbo Mk2 air bearing system or my venerable Garrard 301 (new bearing from Classic Turntable Company).

Mahler typically has huge dynamic range, from muted off-stage performers to hundreds of musicians going hell-for-leather.

The rumble could be partly caused by the venue’s air conditioning system, but I hear similar background on a Telarc recording (Stereo 10051) of Saint Saens Organ Symphony made in Philadelphia.  Telarc even arranged to have local roads shut down for the recording sessions.

Similar efforts were made by DG when recording the organ at Notre Dame in Paris, where recording was done late at night to reduce traffic noise.  My copy includes Dolby Atmos on Pure-Audio Bly-ray (DG 486 1466).

I was beginning to think the rumble was inherent in my tables, but then I played a German Direct Metal Mastered (DMM) set from In-Akustik for Clearaudio’s 40th anniversary (INAK 78051 2LP).  It includes some Telarc tracks.  This set has the quietest background I’ve never heard.  There is virtually no rumble, exonerating my tables.

So apart from the recoding venue’s air conditioning and traffic noise, why do so many classical records seem to have built-in rumble?  Could it be from the mastering lathe?

I am really only thinking about classical recordings where the dynamic range approximates the signal to noise ratio of vinyl, meaning that very low-level signals are musically important, while simultaneously bumping against the noise floor.

richardbrand
richardbrand's avatar
richardbrand OP
1,362 posts
 

@billstevenson

You don't have to try my idea.  You can think yourself out of it

Unfortunately, I cannot always respond immediately laugh. I am about 15 hours ahead of you timewise, so probably asleep when you post and not awake for many hours afterwards. 

I did as you suggested, but only for the Holbo.

I have taped a 5-gram weight to the cartridge. and am now tracking at the geometric limit of the balance weight - a bit over 3-grams instead of 2.1.

Vertical effective mass has gone from 15.1 grams to about 20.1 grams, while horizonal mass is up from about 39 to 44.

On the Tacet test record, there is still audible mistracking at 6-Hz and a few signs of discomfort on the 5-Hz and 7-Hz bands.  Clean from 8-Hz to 15-Hz.

The Telarc record has been mine for decades, was digitally recorded, with flat frequency response from 0-Hz to 50,000 samples per second.  There are no scratches, or significant tocks or pops.

It subjectively seemed a bit clearer with the extra tracking weight, which is not something I expected, and a little bit more crud appeared on the stylus than I expected.  I think the stylus is getting a bit further into the groove and digging a little bit more dirt out.  but I would not testify this in court!

For the record indecision the Holbo puck weighs about 630-grams

Can you make anything from this?

audphile1's avatar
audphile1
7,822 posts
 

Both platters are topped with Funk Firm’s acrylic Achromats, for what it is worth

@richardbrand I recommend removing the acrylic mats. Have the record coupled directly to the platters. This will require a VTA adjustment.
Give it a shot and let us know. My gut feel is the rumble will at least reduce, if not completely go away. 

billstevenson
1,162 posts
 

Richard,

The additional weight should result in the clearer sound you are hearing.  That is why I suggested it.  I think @audphile1 idea of trying different mats is a good one too, although in addition to his suggestion of no mat, see if you can beg, borrow or steal (i.e. don't spend money until you know which option works best) a thick soft rubber one as supplied by Technics and Denon as OEM, maybe a leather one too.

audphile1's avatar
audphile1
7,822 posts
 

@billstevenson 

Just to be clear - my suggestion was to remove the mat completely. Not to try different mats. 

The imperfections in form as a result of manufacturing errors, be it acrylic or thick rubber mats(which is even worse) will result in vibrations that are picked up and transmitted by the stylus into your phono stage where it gets amplified and sent straight to your woofers. 

No mats when playing a record. There’s a reason why serious turntable manufacturers take great care in precision of manufacturing heavy platters. To fight vibration. Holbo has a 5kg aluminum platter. Use a good quality precision manufactured record clamp and couple the record directly to platter. 
Use acrylic mats as dust cover. That’s about what they’re good for. 

billstevenson
1,162 posts
 

@audphile1 Oh you were clear, no mat is good mat for you.  You are nothing if not erudite.  Quite simply, we disagree on this point.  No mat is one way to do things.  You may take the path that your way is the only right way.  Fine.  For you.  To imply, as you have done above, that "serious turntable manufacturers" only follow your prescription is really not accurate now is it?  There are many ways to skin a cat, just as there are many ways to flavor food.  Quite simply there is no such thing as the one single right way to do anything.  You don't care for acrylic mats.  No problem, don't use one.  Some people don't like peas either.  Nobody is forcing them down anyone's throat.  With all due respect, you will gain more respect if you take a lighter approach when expressing your opinions.

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