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Let's talk music, no genre boundaries

This is an offshoot of the jazz thread. I and others found that we could not talk about jazz without discussing other musical genres, as well as the philosophy of music. So, this is a thread in which people can suggest good music of all genres, and spout off your feelings about music itself.

 

audio-b-dog
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
15,055 posts
 

"spiritual depth" is not a religious experience linked to a piece of religious music for me...

This is a common place Lapalissade association by superficial look...

 

"spiritual depth" in music is linked to the " felt change of consciousness" Owen Barfield  defined and associated with the way words/sounds/rythms are used in poetry...In the same way musicians can use music language of their culture and timbre mastery to create  real "spiritual experiences" not just "fun" or a designed orthodox religious celebration.

 

"visceral" on the other way refer back to the property of music to speak trough the "timbre experience" which is a universal experience lived trough our body sensation nevermind the differences of culture...

you read it here : 

 

Bodily maps of musical sensations across cultures

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2308859121

 

Timbral effects on consonance disentangle psychoacoustic mechanisms and suggest perceptual origins for musical scales:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-45812-z

 

The reason why this is such is explained by this acoustician in his book here an article : 

 

The Mechanical Invariance Factor in Musical Acoustics and Perception (Revisited)

https://sciencepublishinggroup.com/article/10.11648/10026300

 

 This article can help to understand all the others above : 

«Building on the current results, the researchers are now investigating how human hearing is more finely tuned toward natural sounds, and also studying the temporal factor in hearing.»

 

I insisted on "musical time" so much in this thread the reason is explained here in the  lastarticle under these lines and why musical time cannot be measured by linear clock...Furtwangler knew it in a way Toscanini did not...(Gergiev Russian maestro) 

Human hearing beats the Fourier uncertainty principle

https://phys.org/news/2013-02-human-fourier-uncertainty-principle.html

 

 
 

 

 

mahgister's avatar
mahgister
15,055 posts
 

For sure we can as the ignorant crowd of consumers speak only about music "fun" visceral or not ...

But i am not member of this crowd...

The most powerful music must be visceral in his effect for sure but it is not enough to create "a felt change in consciousness"  the effect like Marian Anderson create singing anything,or in the didgeridoo experience, or with some talking Nigerian Yoruba drum experience or with a sarod master or with some Hildegard of Bingen etc  we must add "consciousness change" tools and means   to our visceral perceiving  metabolism . Music experience is precisely the indifferentied/differentiated action of meaning as sound  and sound as meaning through our body and mind as an internal pluralities  appearing as ONE gesture.

Then spiritual musical experience can be created by "love supreme" playing   which is not religious music at all ...

 

«Why do you like eating cadavers marinated in underwater for so long ? I cannot explain said the crocodile, it is "visceral" » Anonymus zoologist 

audio-b-dog's avatar
audio-b-dog OP
876 posts
 

@mahgister 

I don't have time to read all the books you throw out. I'm writing and researching a novel. But inherent in what you say, it seems to me, that you believe that your experience of music is at a "higher" level than others. 

"For sure we can as the ignorant crowd of consumers speak only about music "fun" visceral or not ...But i am not member of this crowd..."

As an American poet, I was taught to come down to earth in my language and sentiment. And perhaps this is why we enjoy different things in music. I believe the highest sentiment can be found in a stone.

As a boy in high school we had a small record store with two listening booths. I would sit alone listening to classical music while a bunch of kids would sit in the other booth listening to pop tunes. As you can see, I set myself apart as an "intellectual" at a young age. 

When I arrived at college I met a very pretty girl who danced joyfully to the Beatles. I learned to like the Beatles and many other rock groups and began to eschew intellectualism. I still do, although I read books on archaeology and sociology and religion, always with a bit of skepticism.

This is to say, that I don't fear the thoughts of anyone. Einstein had to brew his tea and drink it himself. And I try to understand everyone. But no matter what logical distinctions I make, you always refer to your own taste as a "truth" of sorts. I want to embrace the taste of others. If I don't like what they suggest for me to listen to, then I won't. But I don't suggest that my understanding of music is superior to anyone else.

That being said, and I've probably pissed you off, in the latest Absolute Sound, there is a long writeup on Brazilian music and great recordings of Brazilian music. I know we share that love.

And here is my poem about a stone:

Composite Things

 

 

Suddenly you find yourself

for some unknown reason

staring at the ground

& there is only dirt.

 

You fall to your hands &

knees & start digging

fascinated by the bits of

rock & detritus

yesterday's litter

mixed with things from

the earliest beginnings.

 

Then you pick

up a rock to brush

it off, some common composite

thing, but the whirling

striations have caught your

eye so you fall into an

enchantment wondering how

all these bits of sparkle

swirling with white &

brown ever got

compressed into a package

so small

& how that has come into

your flesh-pink hand

at this very  moment

with the sky just as it

is overhead, tilted

slightly away.

 

Everything freezes together

& stops for that moment,

the universe itself

a composite stone

& you sparkling

deep in its center.

 

 

mahgister's avatar
mahgister
15,055 posts
 

@mahgister 

I don’t have time to read all the books you throw out. I’m writing and researching a novel. But inherent in what you say, it seems to me, that you believe that your experience of music is at a "higher" level than others. 

I dont "trow out books" these are akll articles of science or acoustics linked to music...

 

I presume if you write a book you are not in the crowd and dont despise someone who think...

must i apologize to suffest content articles and reflections ? 

 

You make innuendos about my behaviour and posts suggesting  that my "taste rule" over everyone... This is "ad hominem" attacks...

I expressed in this thread and communicate links of music in all genres and styles from West or East or Africa, save commercial pop chart...

Instead of trying to understand my point you dismiss it by these  ad himinem attacks..

I am a "snob"  who impose his taste...

Are you serious ? 

 

 

 

mahgister's avatar
mahgister
15,055 posts
 
This is a definition of Time in music by Google A.I.  which i can use to fix the idea : 
 
 
 
«In music, time primarily refers to concepts like tempo, time signature, and meter, which define the speed and structure of musical pieces. Tempo indicates the speed of the music (e.g., 60 BPM means 60 beats per minute), while time signature specifies how many beats are in each measure and what type of note represents a single beat. Meter is the underlying pattern of stressed and unstressed beats.  More detailed breakdown:
 
1. Tempo:
  • Tempo is the speed of the music, often measured in beats per minute (BPM).
  • A higher BPM indicates a faster tempo, and a lower BPM indicates a slower tempo.
  • For example, 60 BPM means one beat per second, while 120 BPM means two beats per second. 
  •  
2. Time Signature:
  • The time signature is a musical notation that indicates the meter of a piece. 
3. Meter:
  • Meter is the pattern of stressed and unstressed beats in a piece of music. 
4. Beat and Pulse:
  • The beat is the basic unit of time in music, a regular rhythmic pulse. 
5. Other Related Concepts:
  • Measure/Bar: A segment of time corresponding to one cycle of the time signature. 
  • It typically appears at the beginning of a musical score as two numbers stacked on top of each other, like a fraction. The top number indicates how many beats are in each measure (or bar). The bottom number indicates what type of note gets one beat.
  •  
  • For example, in 4/4 time, there are four beats per measure, and a quarter note gets one beat. It is closely related to the time signature, which defines the basic rhythmic framework. 
  •  
  •  
  • Simple meters (like 4/4 or 3/4) have a regular pattern of strong and weak beats. Compound meters (like 6/8 or 12/8) have a more complex rhythmic structure. The pulse is the underlying, steady beat that the music follows. In most music, the beat corresponds to the note value indicated by the time signature’s bottom number, though it can also be a grouping of those note values.
  • Rhythm: The overall pattern of sounds and silences in music. 
  • Rubato: A flexible approach to tempo where the performer can speed up or slow down the music.
  •  
  • Phrase: A musical sentence or idea that is usually defined by its length
 
 
 
Now  this definition of time in music as measurable in some way as described by A.I.  we must add the concept of "musical time" as non measurable, non linear,  resulting from the gesture of the musician (rubato does not catch it all ) gesture which try to catch trough the "timbre"effect mastery of the instrument something which is an information about the instrument physical state qualities and something a time-like information about  the musician body state  itself vibrating with the instrument and something else, an information about the written music interpretation and meaning.
 
 That is musical time which transcend measured time  and this is is where is the "spiritual depth " of music...Between timbre of the vibratings sound sources (musician+instrument) , their time dimensions, measurable and non measurable,
 
I dont throw ad hominem arguments by the way...I like to think with others of good faith...
 And yes my posts are sometimes long...
 You can add this to "snobism" ...
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