Jazz for aficionados

@audio-b-dog 

I agree-- we are very much on the same page although I do think you are romanticizing a bit if you really believe there is not work involved in mastering Jazz. Like any art form, it takes commitment and and discipline and the further one wishes to go, the more it requires of the individual. The Coltrane’s and Shorters may make it seem easy but for most of us, art is not easy.

Having said that, I was watching an interview with Diane Seuss (digressing to poetry, here) the other day and she said writing poems has never been "effortful" for her.  I wish I could say the same about my writing process!

BTW, I don’t find you to be a pain at all. That never entered my mind. 

stuartk, writing poetry was never difficult for me because I was bursting with something to say and I wanted very badly to say it.  I studied with Gary Snyder and other notable poets, so I had a technical foundation. Once a poem burst out of me, like the Coltrane poem which I did write on a roadside, then I lovingly worked on it to refine what I wanted to say. But I don't write poetry anymore.

Writing prose, on the other hand, is a bitch. I should be working on my novel, but it's more pleasurable to write you. I think I was touched with poetry. I started writing in 9th grade. My high school poems were good enough to get me entry into a much-coveted spot in Gary Snyder's upper-division class at Berkeley. I was hungry for the tools he gave me.

To me poetry is a burst of emotion crafted into form. Prose, prose, prose... it is too long to be a burst of anything. And I do tons of research. I have been researching the book I'm working on for at least fifteen years. I didn't even know exactly what the book was about until research led me there. 

From my research, I believe that music was first made during humanity's spiritual quest, about 40,000 to 60,000 years ago. Nietsche says there is no tragedy without music. And we all know there is not ecstasy without music. I think Coltrane had a direct pipeline into music's spirituality. I'm listening to Pharoah Sanders now, and he shared what Coltrane had. So did Alice Coltrane, whom I think should be on anybody's list of top jazz musicians.

The musicians you mentioned to me, Davis, Shorter, Coltrane, Parker, all broke through some barrier. And barriers are only broken with raw emotion. Parker brought us into bebop. Out of bebop, Coltrane and Miles took us into a raw, spiritual territory that jazz had not yet explored, at least not in their way.

I am not saying that they did not have to work, but I'm saying I don't think it was "work" for them. If somebody falls in love with somebody else, it is not work to spend days traveling to see them, even for a short time. Coltrane had something bursting to get out of him, and fI think he would have been anxious to find the tools and learn how to use them 

Roots of jazz: for those discussing the roots of jazz, I think the U.S. and Brazil are two countries where jazz and pop emerged because they're such melting pots with so many roots. Early jazz had so many influences. Obviously the blues from slaves and other Blacks, but there was also Scotch-Irish influences, and Jewish Klezmer music. The Gershwins were clearly part of jazz's beginnings, and Italian singers weren't wanting. This is one area of the arts where Europe had to look to the Americas.

My favorite female jazz singer :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtbDTRZwx3c

Some thoughts on this interesting discussion.  @audio-b-dog , welcome to the thread!

I greatly appreciate it when someone shows great passion for this great art form.  One of its beauties is how it (any art) can touch each of us differently and in unique ways.  This goes straight to why, with all respect, I disagree with some of what you wrote.  This is a personal matter and not a criticism.

I think it is very important to remember that one’s reaction to the amount of “emotionality” that a musician is perceived to express is very often as much a reflection of the listener as it is of the musician in question.  It is very easy (and unfair) to label a musician as “lacking emotionality”, “intellectual”, or, conversely, “soulful” outside the context of our own unique sensibilities as listeners.  I think that one should be very careful to not judge too quickly and instead be more respectful of what, instead, might be a very nuanced and personal way with emotionality.  That’s not to say that we shouldn’t have preferences, but sometimes we are influenced by things that have little to do with musicality.  

**** men show their swagger by the way they move their shoulders when they walk. Women show their swagger by the way they move their hips****

Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate a woman’s hips as much as any man, but I don’t see what that has to do with expression of swagger (or anything else) in their playing.

You mentioned Wynton Marsalis.  As I’m sure you know, Wynton is probably the most important advocate for Jazz currently.  If not always by way of his playing, certainly by way of his understanding of the history of the music and passion for its education and promotion.  When asked on the subject, he commented that it was the great Jazz singer Betty Carter that most embodied (at the time) the integrity, soul and swagger that are essential elements of great Jazz.  Ever watch Betty Carter walk?  Believe me, no hip swagger in the least 😊.

I don’t understand why the distinction is made between “female singers” and “musicians”.  Female (and male, obviously) singers ARE musicians.  Some singers are every bit the musician that the greatest instrumentalists are.  Personally, I don’t get the preoccupation with “the feminine”.  Stereotypes can be a dangerous thing when judging art.

Re the history of the music.  While it is very true that the “swing” and “call and response” elements of Jazz has its roots in African culture, European concepts of melody and harmony were equally important in its development.  

And, yes, the greats WORK at their craft.  Work very hard. The greats practice incessantly and it isn’t always a fun endeavor.  Sometimes it is painstaking and frustrating, but, yes, rewarding in the end.

Since you admire female Jazz artists so, have you checked out Mary Lou Williams? Very important figure in Jazz.

Again,  welcome to the thread.