How to fix my detailed, accurate but BRIGHT system

Al,

I cross-posted with you, so I hadn't read your post, before I posted.

Are you saying that an erratic electrical speaker impedance curve doesn't actually present a more difficult load to the amplifier in this case, because it's still within the acceptable limits of the amplifiers current delivering ability, and there won't be a problem with a frequency db imbalance, unless the curve dips far enough below the amplifiers minimal impedance, lets say 2 ohms?

Rich

i've had the 7b's for about 4 months, in a near identical environment as the OP. plus the added negative of a hard wood ceiling. i do like my music "forward". some might call it a bit bright. i agree that the 7b's are on the bright side of the line. not by alot but they are there. obviously this trait is worse to have in a listening room like the OP's and mine.

in my system, the highs and mids are pronounced for sure...but smooth imo. i added a velodyn dd12 sub to add a tiny touch of hard bottom end. i spent a ton of time (weeks) with the sub and it's adjustment kit. got it right where *i thought* i wanted it, after alot of work. sub volume is set at 16 on a scale of 100. just the little back-up punch i was looking for. servo is set to max control so it's super tight too.

which brings me to the real reason i jumped into this thread. my old friend Rich commenting above on a negative plateau, quoting John Atkinson. my velodyn kit exposed said platau from about 125-160hz. regardless of where the mic was... it was glaring and impossible to miss on my big screen lol!. looked like 6db or more to me. since the parametric eq in the kit only adjusts too 125hz, i thought it was something i'd have to live with. can't say i noticed it in listening because i enjoyed the sound.

until recently, i had the crossover on the sub set at 60-70 for the most part. during a recent tweek session with the velodyne kit, i inadvertently discovered the crossover could be set as high as 200hz. i would never even think of setting a sub x-over point that high. by accident, i had sent it up to 140. but low and behold, half the platau was gone/dissappeared. i then tried it higher and higher until the entire platau was gone. with the volume set so low...it barely effected the lower frequencies (maybe 1 or 2 db boost max). the x-over is now set at 162 and my FR curve looks incredibly smooth all the way too 200.

looking good on a graph can often be different then sounding good. i immediately tried a bunch of different music and to my surprise....it really did sound "better". a very subtle but important improvement imo. smoother with better depth without being bass heavy. still don't like the idea of having the cross-over set so high but hey...it works and i like the sound better.

as a side note...i also agree with Rich and Tvad regarding amp/speaker synergy. thought the 7b's sounded better with the krells one dealer was using. your comments/observations above would make for a logical explanation (that had never occured to me).

if you're into music on the warm side of things, the 7b's are not a good option imo. they are near perfect for me though. i really like um. my budget was only 2k used when i picked these up. i think i got alot of speaker for the money. will be looking to upgrade in the next year or so but for now.....i'm enjoying them.

cheers
Lev

Amps which double their rated outputs or don't aren't always the place to start looking for brightness issues. Doubtless few if any of us will actually push an amp far enough along that it needs to output it’s highest level of voltage or current production. Usually we aren’t even close to requiring such amplitudes.

I've owned Krell, BK, & BAT, SS amps along with reasonably sensitive, and insensitive speakers ranging from 84db to 93db. 2 ohm to 8 ohm.

Brightness usually results from areas other than limited power output.

The glaring item indicated here predominately is the room’s outfitting… and why so many point to making changes there and I do agree.

However

… that’s not the only place I’d look. One spot to check out is your cable/satellite ground connection. It may not be as pronounced a thing as to produce the usually noticeable ground loop noise, yet might be still introducing sufficient artifacts to the system which will affect the upper midrange and treble areas by it’s very nature. I -say this as it was my issue… twice. Once in my old home, and then again in this new one.

Simply remove the main incoming cable connection, and/or go outside to the power pole and lift the cable ground. Wait a half an hour or so, and try the rig again. It should be plainly evident if that’s contributing.

Having recently heard the butler topology in my own system, I’m hard pressed to believe it’s the amp. Especially if you are using the 250 wpc version. I used one with 100 wpc less. There’s nothing bright about that amp at all. I found it extended and warmish across the freq range. The amp ain’t it. It drove my 86db dropping to 2 ohm towers, handily.

It seems though, cables aren’t a concern for you as none are listed nor has a response been issued that I noticed as to what is where on your rig in that regard. Wires matter.

Cabling is a part of, not a part from, the total system synergy, contrary to what other’s might feel. Such is my own exp. My failure to properly address the wiring cost me sufficiently. I thought the system entirely mismatched and lost a lot selling it all off in near new condition… then setting about to replace it all over again with different items, naturally. Sony CDP, B&K, Krell pre & amp, Monitor Audio Gold 60, BW 9NT, 805, 600’S, Velodyne sub.

It wasn’t the gear.

Lastly, as power filtration or conditioning was also left out of your list of system componentry I would look there too. Power line artifacts can indeed cause some attenuation of the freq band and by so doing, seemingly enhance other portions of it and contribute mightily to the fatigue factor. With a good one you’ll hear less of what you aren’t hearing, and more of what you should.

Isolation or racking & shelving of the gear is as well, another area you might look into. You don’t mention the stand you use either so I gotta in all good conscience jot that down as it can also be quite contributory to affecting both sound staging and tone.

I went from an MDF – wood rack, to a metal rack with acrylic shelves… and could not figure out why my formerly rich and warm sounding rig became so fatiguing. At that time I BAT pre and amp, with either Phase Tech or VR4 JR speakers… upscale cabling, and PS Audio & Shunyata passive power line filters at various times… again, it wasn’t the gear.

It was how the gear was set up.

Adding pods, nodes, shelves/platforms helped a lot, but getting a dedicated well damped rack was the true ‘big deal’ changer. Plywood helped on the metal & plexiglass monstrosity I had, so did simple wood block footers, especially the Ebony & Mahogany ones. Cocobolo was by far the smoothest sounding though of the lot.

These few areas are quick and easy enough to investigate and their associated fixes are quite inexpensive, save for the power line option, and cabling updates or upgrades.

Wood block footers are near free, compliant footers aren’t much more… see herbies Audio labs, a filter unit for the inline coax is about $10. A 2x2 hunk of Plywood is about $5. The Cable Co rents conditioners and cables too.

At some point (s) I’ve had similar issues to yourself, and all of the above were areas I had to ultimately address to resolve it/them.

Unless your gear needs servicing, that ain’t it.

Believe it or not…. Good… a Ripleys plug.

tvad...i was not suggesting that addressing the room was the cure all, more that it is the place i would begin. i have never owned the aerial 7b's and am not familiar with their sound but i have experienced vast improvement from the changes i mentioned in general.

I used aerial 7bs for a few years in
a 16 x 14.5 x 9 ft room with all bat electronics and cardas cables. My room is furnished with a large sectional, ceiling to floor velvet drapes Nd wall-to-wall carpeting. I used a bat or ayre cd player or sme 10 turntable. My system was the complete opposite of bright. The aerials are on the darker and warmer side of neutral. I am not familiar with your associated equipment. I believe the problem lies elsewhere than the speakers