Demise of bass quality in Main speakers

@akg_ca wrote:

Ignoring the basic physics that a larger driver can go deeper, quality crisp bass slam and dynamics in bass reproduction has minimal to do with driver size. Rather it’s about the speed of the driver.

A larger driver in itself doesn’t go deeper; it’s still bound by the relation between cone size and enclosure volume, meaning - all things being equal - the larger unit needs a proportionately larger internal air volume just to maintain extension. How it actually sounds compared to its smaller iteration is another matter and one that may lead one to believe it goes/measures deeper, when in fact it may not.

Also of importance is comparing the sonic outcome of several smaller woofers whose summed air radiation area equals that of a single larger ditto. To my ears well-implemented large woofers always sound more naturally layered, tuneful and natural compared to a bunch a smaller units.

Interestingly a duo or even quartet of 15" woofers, per channel, don’t go into the multiple smaller woofers territory of poorer bass imprinting, but rather gets even better vs. a single 15" woofer. Indeed, a quartet of well-implemented pro 15" woofers in a star config. - again, per channel - acting only from the midbass on up, high-passed and augmented down low with fitting subs, is a sonic treat that in its sheer effortless, enveloping and textured presentation simply bowls over any (much) smaller, typical hifi variation. Front horn-load a single suitable 15" woofer in a fittingly large 1/4 wave horn with a non-truncated mouth opening will equate a quartet of direct radiating 15" woofers in efficiency and effective air radiation area, while likely winning out in bass snap, smoothness and clarity.

Until you foray into top quality build and more expensive speakers, the truth of the matter is that many larger size in- cabinet woofers have fully earned a bad reputation. They usually suck ….many of them sound boomy, muddy and out of control (that become untenable at louder volumes) with an obnoxious bass overhang that lingers so long as to blur most of the musical information up until the next bass note is struck. Ergo, listener fatigue.

This isn’t a factor of driver size per se, but rather throwing the woofers in paper thin-walled enclosures, bad port tuning (where they’re ported), crappy drivers, etc. Any driver size can be affected here, but the larger ones may be more exposed in bigger enclosures that throw structural integrity by the wayside if not properly scaled up wrt. stability.

sure …there is a limited cohort of bass headbangers out there with predominantly “party speakers” with this inflated boomy and muddy bass, with anything but a flat(ter) speaker response curve…. that seem to be either agnostic or immune to these warts.

Re: my paragraph above on the benefits of (well-implemented) big displacement area I’m sure many an audiophile will dismiss such solutions as being ridiculous in home environments. What’s the saying here: what works sonically with an open mind, or what adheres to hifi dogma?

The deeper bass can instead be dealt with by a quality build powered subwoofer.

The #1 benefit of adding a high quality subwoofer to your system is not how it further extends the bass response, but how it can dramatically improve the sound of your existing power amp and main speakers from the midrange on up.

That is by far the most compelling reason to add a sub to your high-end music system. Once your main speakers are freed from the burden of making deep bass, they will sound cleaner, faster and clearer, especially in the midrange and midbass.

They will also image way better because there will be far less air pressure and therefore resonance and vibration affecting their cabinet walls. And since the power required to make the deep bass is provided by the subwoofer’s built-in amplifier, your main power amp will be free from that burden and begin to sound like a much more powerful amplifier.

Fully agree.

The one big problem with all of this is that you need a crossover to roll off the deep bass in your system and achieve all of these benefits.

It’s not a problem if your setup is actively configured to begin with; it’s simply about applying a high-pass filter not set too low (i.e.: preferably from ~80Hz on up), and treat the whole of the speaker setup, incl. separately housed subs, as one speaker system per channel.

@james633 --

+1

@james633 Wrote:

the 15” is so much more textured and detailed than the speaker with 8” and also more detailed and textured than the subs. The large driver barley moves and is just better. No replacement for displacement.  

I couldn't agree more. I own speakers with dual 15” bass drivers. The bass is effortless and organic like a live event, the bass just flows over you with very, very low distortion, The low midrange and woofer are so well integrated the speakers are coherent from top to bottom. I find small bass drivers to have a forced unnatural sound. The speakers are actively bi-amped (JBL 4435's). 😎

Mike

Remember Hofmann's Iron Law: Article

Lots of really Great answers throughout.

My overall impression from comments above is that subwoofers are being marketed and used inappropriately in many situations to solve bass driver Quality issues.  Subwoofers are not intended for this purpose. They are supposed to deal with sound ranging below 80 hz, which generally is not as detailed as sound waves above this.

It's not rocket science.

OP I think I agree with some of your points, but also feel lost on what you're trying to get to reading your first and last post. Marketing wise someone could probably write a 100 page dissertation,  but I think bass performance boils down to cabinet size and competing at a price point. I've tried to give away great speakers and they've been vetoed because of being too big - even lil floorstanders with dual 8's. 

I agree it's not rocket science. I have some great speakers that can do bass solid for most music. Frankly I'm blown away by them for price and performance and that's why they're keepers. For true 20 Hz and below performance I needed to add a sub. It's pretty tough to compete with a good sub for that last bit of low extension with the dedicated high power amplification and cabinet size. I prefer to cross at about 30 Hz with my mains having solid performance down to there though I understand the 80 Hz method.

I have had some pretty big speakers that had stupendous bass, but I couldn't control it in my room. This is the other advantage of subwoofers though you could also use DSP etc to tame powerful speakers.  As someone else stated multiple subwoofers can be used for room issues to get ideal bass response throughout. I will be going to 2 subs when I can fit them, but have heard of many going to 4 for most even response. 

I love 2 channel, but a lot of the "full range" speakers I would love to have at my price range and far beyond that don't dig down to 20 Hz or below. I listed some very expensive speakers that do go below 20 Hz on another site and was chastised as being a snob for providing them as good examples. I think it's all about building the best system you can afford in your space for your tastes,  but it sometimes seems to get way overcomplicated. 

I’m of the opinion that sub(s) should not be audible themselves in the room rather they mesh with the mains to create a single sound. The reason I added a REL to my system was a search for increased fullness in the music. The primary benefit I actually received, and was not expecting, was how great my system now sounds at low / lower listening levels. My ears thank me everyday.