Jazz for aficionados

On a different thread, mahgister wrote very eloquently about “time” in music; specifically, an orchestral conductor’s time conception. It could be said that the musical “particulars” that come into play (😉) in the expression of time in music are, fundamentally and to one degree or another, the same no matter the genre. When there is agreement on a deep level, the magic happens; and there has to be a certain level of agreement between a conductor and the ensemble for the expression of a conductor’s time concept to be expressed well.

For me, this is one of those recordings with that magic. Amazing lineup of Larry Young, Grant Green, Elvin Jones and Sam Rivers all sharing that deep level of agreement. I have posted Larry Young’s “Unity” recording a couple of times previously. Classic, little known record. This one, “Into Somethin’ “ is his first Blue Note recording.

As an aside, it took me a while to appreciate Sam Rivers; tenor player who was active in the “out” or avant garde Jazz scene and who had a tone which was not pretty in the usual sense. It took me years to appreciate just how great he was. Sometimes we are too focused on tone at the expense of our appreciation for what the player is saying.

For this Grant Green album i love very much, like some others Grant Green, you are very right...

When i spoke about time in classical written music where the maestro determined the quality of the "musical time" and his value, i spoke about two extreme polarities about musical time like in the case of Furtwangler and Celibidache...

But i must admit that i begun to love jazz at a mature age only, when i was able to distinguish and perceive the most important element in music, which is musical time out of metronomical or measured time, a phenomenon especially at the heart of what improvising jazz musicians together experienced when playing at their optimal they created a piece where all is working well in his own time dimension...

This is the reason why now i love more musicians interpretation than the written score... Why i love jazz at the same level than classical.... And why i can appreciate Indian and Persian music as much as these other two European music for example...

When i was young, and not being a musician nor an educated music student,  i goes only with my taste, now with maturity  i learned slowly  how to learn, listening "musical time" expression...What you called "magic"...My tastes were no more the main ruler in my listening, and it is for this reason i was able to open my mind to others musical dimensions...

Musicians are the salt and the meal of music not only and mainly the written score....Time is on their hands not in the written score....

My best to you and all....

On a different thread, mahgister wrote very eloquently about “time” in music; specifically, an orchestral conductor’s time conception. It could be said that the musical “particulars” that come into play (😉) in the expression of time in music are, fundamentally and to one degree or another, the same no matter the genre. When there is agreement on a deep level, the magic happens.

**** the most important element in music, which is musical time out of metronomical or measured time, ****

That’s right. I would qualify that comment by streamlining the idea even further to simply “time”. Time is the most important element of music; and not only time outside a metronomic reference. It has to be all inclusive as far as possibilities. There are times in a musical performance of a particular work when metronomic time is precisely what the music demands; whether it be specified in the score, or whether it is an aspect of a conductor’s vision for the work. It is the musical cohesion and logic between the two polarities (to use your word) and all points in between that make a great performance. It is true that in Jazz this idea is “at the heart of what improvising musicians (do)”, In a much more subtle and much more controlled way it is the same and essential for the written score. In orchestral music, the magic happens when there is agreement with, or at least respect, for the conductor’s concept. That Bernstein/Corialan is a great example. Not only is it clearly heard, one can see the agreement and enthusiasm in the players’ body language, No matter the level of professionalism on the part of the players, there is always a bit extra given when they “get” what the conductor is trying to say; or, agree that the conductor is allowing what the composer is trying to say to be expressed. This is not always the case. In a way, the same thing happens in Jazz.

We are on the same page i think ...

Thanks for your adding remarks...

For sure when i distinguished musical time and physically measured time, i was also speaking of polarites like un the usual Extreme opposite concept of time polarities between Furt, and Celi...Bernstein being more in the middle and for me more Beethovenian in his Egmont than Celi for sure... But speaking about this polarity between Furt and Celi , I was speaking about classical interpreted written musical score...

This polarity between musical time and physical measured time is so important in jazz , i discovered it when i read about a black musician in Us , i forgot who, who was instructed by an African musician about the necessity for the music to "roll" ... He tested this african musician with pieces of european music, and often the African did say "it does not roll" even with some jazz sometimes..

Intrigued he decided to go to Africa...And the end of his story is that he finally understood what "rolling means"...

I interpreted this anecdote by listening to the way some interpretation of playing jazz musicians goes the fine line between this polarity: between measured repeated intervals of physical usual time and musical time sentences and beating "rhymes" in and out of usual flowing time... The pattern is a rolling resonant waves for me something akin to poetical time and resonance in speech compared to prosaic means...The African Youruba speaking drums are spectacular example of this in the hand of a master able to make the drum roll and speak and certainly one of the inspiration in the black soul origin of jazz......Time is no more flowing so much but metamorphosing itself into being ...Time unchained rolls...

I dont know if my post make sense for a seasonned musician... I am not one at all... I only listen.... 😁😊

After the master playing of my above post, here we have a clear explanation.... Fascinating...

I think the origin of humanity is humor victorious over fear in creation, the recreation of time in ceremony where music and speech reunited again recreating man itself and men together...

A remark about drums in general : So astounding and refined is Indian tabla drumming, and it is refined and deep in musical meaning and with metaphysical  meaning, i was always flabbergasted how African traditional drummer evoke something way more deep in a sense  in their "rolling speaking" way about our human origin more than about cosmology like in the Indian case...

There is at the end no personal  taste so much who moves us toward music  but more a thirst for  learning  experience at the end...