I don't want to beat a dead horse but I'm bugged.

@russ69

Q.: “ … I just can’t clear my head of this. I don’t want to start a measurements vs listening war and I’d appreciate it if you guys don’t, but I bought a Rogue nSphinx V3 as some of you may remember and have been enjoying it quite a bit. So, I head over to AVS and read Amir’s review and he just rips it apart. ….. Help me package that so I can at least understand what they are thinking without dismissing them completely as a bunch of mislead sheep. “

 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.

P. T. Barnum

Nothing draws a crowd quite like a crowd.

P. T. Barnum

 “And in what business is there not humbug? “There’s cheating in all trades but ours,” is the prompt reply from the boot-maker with his brown paper soles, the grocer with his floury sugar and chicoried coffee, the butcher with his mysterious sausages and queer veal, the dry goods man with his “damaged goods wet at the great fire” and his “selling at a ruinous loss,” the stock-broker with his brazen assurance that your company is bankrupt and your stock not worth a cent (if he wants to buy it,) the horse jockey with his black arts and spavined brutes, the milkman with his tin aquaria, the land agent with his nice new maps and beautiful descriptions of distant scenery, the newspaper man with his “immense circulation,” the publisher with his “Great American Novel,” the city auctioneer with his “Pictures by the Old Masters”—all and every one protest each his own innocence, and warn you against the deceits of the rest. My inexperienced friend, take it for granted that they all tell the truth—about each other! and then transact your business to the best of your ability on your own judgment.”
― P.T. Barnum, The Humbugs of the World: An Account of Humbugs, Delusions, Impositions, Quackeries, Deceits and Deceivers Generally, in All Ages

“Nobody ever lost a dollar by underestimating the taste of the American public.” ― P. T. Barnum

There's no such thing as bad publicity'​​​​​​​

P. T. Barnum​​​​​​​

taking a tube amp and measuring it against a modern chip amp is a lesson in futility. Engineers have been able to get cheap chip amps to measure perfectly for some time now, and the kinds of outcomes that Amir bleats from the rooftops were never in doubt. Yet people still keep buying tube amps, and will continue to do so as long as they produce the sonic goods…

@sns 

At least some s also know why I and others like what they like. We're very aware of every issue o brings up, the difference between s and o is what we value. In the end whatever gets you off is fine with me.

Beautifully put in a nutshell.

This thread has generated interesting and thoughtful commentary. 

Charles 

Based on my observations of this controversy over many years I will attempt to elucidate the divide.

I cannot speak for all s, but at least a portion of us believe we can best achieve our goals for sound reproduction with audio systems by listening. We believe with experience and mindfulness, listening skills can be valid means to accurately convey to our minds and senses such that we can accurately choose components and systems that conform as close as possible to our aural memories of live non-amplified music. This being possible while at the same time understanding and acknowledging our sensory limitations and/or subjective qualities of them. We don't deny the validity of measurements, we simply believe current measurement protocol isn't capable of measuring what our ears and senses convey to us.

Again, I can't speak to all o, buy my understanding of their position is that as imperfect as present measurement protocol is, if that is even an admitted liability, it is still superior to the most skilled listener in ascertaining component and system sound quality. The senses are not and cannot be relied upon vs measurement.

If I have this right, I don't see the divide ending anytime soon. both sides are going to hang onto their beliefs. Some 0 may disagree with my use of the word belief attached to their argument, my retort to that is current measurement protocol doesn't explain everything, thus, some measure of belief applied to o argument.

I'll only make this one last argument to defend the s side. Again, I don't want to speak for all s, but I believe many, if not all of us live life to pleasure our senses. We enjoy good food to pleasure our palate, we love to gaze at esthetically  pleasing form to pleasure our sight, we love to hear music reproduced on audio systems that pleasure our hearing. In order to attain pleasure of the senses one needs to simply enjoy, not always second guessing or analyzing and/or doubting our senses. Yes, part of this is monkey brain, we have inherent needs for pleasure. While we are aware of the limitations of our sensory perceptions, we can trust in them enough to derive pleasure from them.

I derive great pleasure from my present audio system, I'm well aware of it's limitations, but it conforms close enough to live non-amplified instrument and vocal timbre, and also conforms in other parameters of sound quality enough to believe live performance is taking place in my audio room. And this doesn't take a lot of mind twisting and/or suspension of reality to achieve. I'm well acquainted with this aspect of stereo reproduction and perception, and I know the less work one has to do here pays off handsomely in pleasuring one's senses. Whether the pleasure  I currently experience from my unique audio system conforms to some other persons idea of what a system ought to be, frankly, doesn't bother me in the least.

This divide between O and S comes from the focus on electronic tools and components...

They together ignore the psycho-acoustic and acoustic impact which is way over some "taste" for gear or over some "measurements" evaluation of the same gear...

That is life, acoustic is more complicated to decipher and read about than a few electrical concepts charts about an amplifier...

A room was a hard task to master...For me....

😁😊

Some say: garbage in from the source ,garbage out from the source...

I will say if your speakers/ room is acoustic garbage your head will be too....Nevermind the source...

It is way more easy to afford a relatively good dac than a relatively good room...

And you dont know your room if you dont work it....