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objective vs. subjective rabbit hole

There are many on this site who advocate, reasonably enough, for pleasing one’s own taste, while there are others who emphasize various aspects of judgment that aspire to be "objective." This dialectic plays out in many ways, but perhaps the most obvious is the difference between appeals to subjective preference, which usually stress the importance of listening, vs. those who insist on measurements, by means of which a supposedly "objective" standard could, at least in principle, serve as arbiter between subjective opinions.

It seems to me, after several years of lurking on and contributing to this forum, that this is an essential crux. Do you fall on the side of the inviolability of subjective preference, or do you insist on objective facts in making your audio choices? Or is there some middle ground here that I’m failing to see?

Let me explain why this seems to me a crux here. Subjective preferences are, finally, incontestable. If I prefer blue, and you prefer green, no one can say either of us is "right." This attitude is generous, humane, democratic—and pointless in the context of the evaluation of purchase alternatives. I can’t have a pain in your tooth, and I can’t hear music the way you do (nor, probably, do I share your taste). Since this forum exists, I presume, as a source of advice from knowledgable and experienced "audiophiles" that less "sophisticated" participants can supposedly benefit from, there must be some kind of "objective" (or at least intersubjective) standard to which informed opinions aspire. But what could possibly serve better as such an "objective standard" than measurements—which, and for good reasons, are widely derided as beside the point by the majority of contributors to this forum?

To put the question succinctly: How can you hope to persuade me of any particular claim to audiophilic excellence without appealing to some "objective" criteria that, because they claim to be "objective," are more than just a subjective preference? What, in short, is the point of reading all these posts if not to come to some sort of conclusion about how to improve one’s system?

snilf
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
15,062 posts
 

Do you fall on the side of the inviolability of subjective preference, or do you insist on objective facts in making your audio choices? Or is there some middle ground here that I’m failing to see?

Now i will answer to your asking question as OP...in very few words because you dont like my post it seems... 😊😊

Read about psycho-acoustic, and you will discover the middle ground position, the deeper one that you are failing to see and read Henri Bortoft books on Goethe if you want to understand Goethe and his link to the actual deep debates in psycho-acoustic science ...

Explaining it will be too long post to be appreciated here .... 😊😊😊😊

 

In simpler word: you cannot assess and describe a change in sound if you dont know what acoustical cues are and which acoustical factors are at play in the change...Electronical design measures so good they are to give us good basic gear are not enough to give us good sound...We need psycho-acoustic education and a mimimal controls over the system/room/ears related parameters...I called that listenings experiments...They implied objective measures and objective disposition of content in the room and subjective learning training experiments...

Speaking of "colors" without knowing what "timbre" is in psycho-acoustic, being an objectivist or a subjectivist nevermind which one, will not help....

Colors are not something deceptive, or the result of an  unbalanced piece of gear   added to a flat neutral more well  designed other piece of gear,  they are usual perceived phenomena called "timbre" perception in a room...The gear system is there, the more  neutral  possible,  to  acoustically translate the recorded acoustic information from the lived event to your uncontrolled or controlled room...

 

 

mitch2
4,767 posts
 

all I was suggesting is that, if a forum like this exists to share informed opinions about the quality of gear (and I think that is its main purpose), then those opinions should be "informed" by more than just personal preference. They should be supported by "objective" "facts."

Interesting suggestion @snilf, but the reality of this forum is that folks will post whatever they choose and even if there were an expectation to support subjective opinions with objective facts, those facts would be chosen by the individual posters resulting in debates about the authenticity, validity, and/or applicability of the supporting facts - bringing us right back to where we are now, regardless of philosophical musings.

snilf's avatar
snilf OP
232 posts
 

I give up. Mahgister, how you can think I'm "attacking" you is a mystery. I did not "equate" you with teo_audio; if anything, I was contrasting the two of you. The point about the dubiousness of the "objective" is the only point of contact here, and that's a point with a deep and noble pedigree. In any case, do you not recall the several exchanges we've had in the past year about Goethe, Kant, Nietzsche...? Does my recognition that you cherish Goethe constitute an "attack" on you?!

Sorry. This isn't a philosophy forum. I'll restrain myself in the future.

mahgister's avatar
mahgister
15,062 posts
 

I give up. Mahgister, how you can think I’m "attacking" you is a mystery. I did not "equate" you with teo_audio; if anything, I was contrasting the two of you. The point about the dubiousness of the "objective" is the only point of contact here, and that’s a point with a deep and noble pedigree. In any case, do you not recall the several exchanges we’ve had in the past year about Goethe, Kant, Nietzsche...? Does my recognition that you cherish Goethe constitute an "attack" on you?!

Sorry. This isn’t a philosophy forum. I’ll restrain myself in the future.

 

I apologize i misread the "tone" of your post...

My only excuse is that i am a bit sensible this week, i have been harassed for few days now the first time here even in my mailbox by a not very amicable dude...

This explain partially my fast reaction...My english understanding of subtles implicit meaning in the syntax and word choices is sometimes defective too...

Please dont be hurted by my "tone" in my reply to your post...

Here we dont see the emotional context...

And please dont restrain yourself in the future because of me, i will be very sad if you do so...I like discussion ....

I respect you completely and sincerely apologize...

My deepest respect to you...

I wish you the best from my heart....

I am really sorry....

dabel
1,677 posts
 

@mahgister your condescending wording followed by a apologetic approach happens all to often. 

My post happened to be a quirky attempt at humor but you missed the mark. The key words on my toggle switch "trivial pursuit." A trivial pursuit is something for which ones takes an interest but is ultimately inconsequential.

Your focus was on "flat" and it lead from there. Not every post is an argument which needs to be in some form or fashion clarified.

Is it clear?

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