1. Home
  2. amps-preamps
  3. 175407-20253

Let me end the Premp/Amplifier sound debate ...

I'm old enough to remember Julian Hersch from Audio magazine and his very unscientific view that all amplifiers sounded the same once they met a certain threshold.  Now the site Audio Science Review pushes the same.

I call these views unscientific as some one with a little bit of an engineering background as well as data science and epidemiology.  I find both of these approaches limited, both in technology used and applied and by stretching the claims for measurements beyond their intention, design and proof of meaning.

Without getting too much into that, I have a very pragmatic point of view.  Listen to the following three amplifier brands:

  • Pass Labs
  • Luxman
  • Ayre

If you can't hear a difference, buy the cheapest amplifier you can.  You'll be just as happy.  However, if you can, you need to evaluate the value of the pleasure of the gear next to your pocket book and buy accordingly.  I don't think the claim that some gear is pure audio jewelry, like a fancy watch which doesn't tell better time but looks pretty.  I get that, and I've heard that.  However, rather than try to use a method from Socrates to debate an issue to the exact wrong conclusion, listen for yourself.

If you wonder if capacitors sound different, build a two way and experiment for yourself.  Doing this leaves you with a very very different perspective than those who haven't. You'll also, in both cases, learn about yourself.  Are you someone who can't hear a difference?  Are you some one who can? What if you are some one who can hear a difference and doesn't care?  That's fine.  Be true to yourself, but I find very little on earth less worthwhile than having arguments about measurements vs. sound quality and value. 

To your own self and your own ears be true.  And if that leads you to a crystal radio and piezo ear piece so be it.  In my own system, and with my own speakers I've reached these conclusions for myself and I have very little concern for those who want to argue against my experiences and choices. 

 

erik_squires
mahgister's avatar
mahgister
15,062 posts
 

Thanks very much atmasphere for your knowledge...

I was hoping your explanation to confirm my point...

I could not explain all the details like you did...

In a word there is tube amplifiers and some S.S. which were never bright or harsh, like my Sansui AU7700 and some new technology now for the last decade...

My point is that there is now available many good different types of amplifiers... Yours for sure and some others...

It is more easy to look for one and buy it now than to solve all acoustic problems for us...

My point is acoustic is the key to optimize and put at their   peak level ANY amplifiers working PERCEIVED EXPERIENCE in a room  in a way that is astounding, not a minute upgrade...

Thanks to you for your useful post...

This has been what has kept tube amplifiers in business the last 70 years since they do offer a way around this issue (they make enough lower ordered harmonics to mask the harshness of the higher orders they also make).

But in more recent times semiconductors have advanced to the point where you can get rid of that pesky brightness/harshness for which solid state is known. IMO we’ve only just arrived near the top of the R&D sigmoid curve in audio in the last ten years or so.

audition__audio
1,777 posts
 

Someone ends a debate but has no interest in debating. Funny. 

 

ieales's avatar
ieales
1,201 posts
 

And I further disagree as I have the NIOSH app on my iPad

No mention of calibrated microphone or calibration standard. Both are necessary.

 

I trust Bob Carver about as much as a preacher.

Carver made the claim, the Doubting Thomases verified he did what he said he could. 

 

I have heard only good things about Ralph

AFAIR, I've only ever said nice things about Ralph and atmasphere. He's a smart guy and his products are very good.

 

While amp circuits may lead to very similar outcomes there are vast differences in power supplies.

Spot on. Many designers don't understand that the amplifier circuitry is a power supply regulator. If the PSU dynamic response is bad, then that will manifest itself in the output.

 

The problem has been that the semiconductors needed to really supplant tubes (meaning: to make a solid state amp that isn't harsh) didn't exist in the 1970s or 1980s.

V-FETs. Sony and Yamaha made some gorgeous sounding amplifiers that cost a fortune.  AND plenty of good ideas that advanced the SOTA. And there are plenty of audio products currently manufactured that make one shake one's head and wonder "What were they thinking?"

 

This has been what has kept tube amplifiers in business the last 70 years since they do offer a way around this issue (they make enough lower ordered harmonics to mask the harshness of the higher orders they also make).

Harmonics, phase response, transient response, compression, dynamic noise spectra, damping factor, glowing sexy glass bottles, emotional involvement adjusting bias, tube rolling, ad infinitum...

 

IMO we've only just arrived near the top of the R&D sigmoid curve in audio in the last ten years or so.

If we are near the top, are we about to start a slide down in a short while as Handy suggests? From my perspective, apart from the bling factor which is lamentably far to prevalent, audio improvement proceeds apace.

mrdecibel
3,315 posts
 

@ieales has mentioned, those V-FET amplifiers sounded very nice ( I owned a Yam B2 ), and I regret selling it ( it needed an over hall and rebuild, and I did not want to do it at that time ( the v-fets were fine ). I have many regrets of gear I had let go......a different story, for another time.....Enjoy !

ieales's avatar
ieales
1,201 posts
 

Another seldom checked SS / tube difference is DC offset. A tube amp w OPT has none and an SS amp likely has some. DC is a voice coil heater. When voice coils heat, their resistance changes. Resistance changes cause corner frequency changes with passive crossovers.

More to discover