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Finally found THE SPEAKER!!!

I have been a HiFi guy starting at 12 years old with my father passing along the love. We would spend almost every weekend auditioning speakers looking to find the perfect system. We purchased many speakers over the years and they all had their pros and cons, but the trade off always seemed to be nuanced and delicate vs. dynamic and punchy. When auditioning speakers people would always ask what kind of music do you like to listen to? Rock, female vocals, classical, etc... We had/have eclectic taste and would listen to it all. Why could't a speaker just play all of it?!?! Anyway my love for music, sound, etc... became my profession as I am now an Oscar nominated Supervising Sound Editor with well over 150 movies under my belt.

For the last 5 years I have been looking for speakers that can play films at reference levels with all the detail and punch, yet when I want to listen to music can give that nuanced and detailed imaging, space, air, articulation without being harsh and fatiguing. I have listened to SO MANY speakers and spent hundreds of hours auditioning everything I could find. I would fall in love with something for music and then try play one of my films at reference level and it just never gave me the impact I was looking for. I get it - hard to move a lot of air and still be nuanced and articulate. There are some excellent compression drivers/horns that can do the impact stuff, but for me they always have that harsh edge when it comes to music. The flip side with dome type tweeters I have found things have to be pushed to the edge to try to give that theatrical impact. Looking for the quick transient response of an electrostatic, with the punch of compression driver type of system.

Then a dealer recommend I listen to some speakers from Wisdom Audio. I have to admit I was pretty skeptical at first. I read about these and it all sounded like marketing to me, but the dealer I was talking with said he was blown away by them. So I reached out to the company and setup a demo. They use planar magnetics which is not exactly new, but is very difficult to manufacture. I asked them to have one of my films available to listen to. I chose one that I knew extremely well that has a LOT of dynamic punch as well as subtle nuance. I live in Los Angeles and the company is in Carson City, Nevada. I bought an airplane ticket and I was off. I was treated to a tour of the factory and shown how the speakers were made. USA manufactured!! Then we spent a few hours listening to all types of music on different ranges of speakers. I LOVED what I was hearing with the music part of the audition. Then I asked to hear my film in their theater. I expected to be disappointed based on what I had experienced in the past. Then it happened... I heard the film play and it sounded AMAZING! These speakers could do it all!!! No compression, no fatigue, HiFi sound and still able to play theatrical film tracks as they are meant to be heard. In fact - better! I called my wife in disbelief that my search for "The Speakers" was finally over! I even called my father to tell him what I had just heard. It was the impressive! I remind you - I do this for a living!

Since we are undergoing a major remodel at our home, my wife expected that the family room was going to be filled with big speakers as she has become accustomed to living with me. With some of these Wisdom Audio speakers, they are actually designed to be flush mounted in the wall. I thought there is no way a wall mounted speaker could ever sound as good as a traditional speaker. I was so wrong!! So not only did I find the perfect speaker, but not big boxes in the room 3 feet away from any walls! My wife was thrilled.

If you have never heard speakers by Wisdom Audio you need to find a dealer where you can audition them, or fly to the factory for a private demo!

Best,
Andrew
drewde
drewde OP
53 posts
 
@dukeofdoowop 

DUDE!!! That is an awesome setup!!! Yes I get the upgrade bug part of your post. I think that is half the fun of this hobby.

I love the McIntosh gear. Always have been a huge fan.

One other question... what are the dimensions of your room? Standing waves are one of those nasty things that are hard to tone down.

I have used Audyssey room correction before and have had VERY mixed results. In on room it worked fantastic and another it really muddied up the sound and I found using the basic distance settings for delays and speaker level settings worked better. I think the problem lies more with my room and the software trying to correct for poor room treatment on my part. If it has to overcompensate too much with EQ I find it hurts rather than helps. AGAIN... my personal experience ONLY!!

That being said - the Audyssey has some very good compression settings for just your situation.

Would you say that overall you find the DX hard to hear with films in general?
Is the dynamic range of quiet to loud a separate issue or the main problem?

I don't have your Control Preamp so I found the manual online. PG 37 discusses the Dynamic Volume (dynamic EQ) settings. The Dynamic Volume should help you with the overly loud issues - it has 3 levels of compression depending on your likes.

BTW - I do like the Dynamic EQ. It is basically a loudness contour (Fletcher Munson Curve) setting. When you turn down your level the bass suffers more than the 3k - 4k range and need to be adjusted upward a fair bit... I forget how much but roughly 10dB to sound equal in volume. What does this mean. When you are listening back to at a lower level it will adjust those frequencies to keep the overall tonal balance the same. It should still sound rich and full even at lower levels.

Page 30 of the manual discusses some other surround settings your preamp has. DRC is one of them which will work with the Dolby True HD tracks. It also has a D.Comp setting as well. I am not sure if you can run both D.COMP along with Audyssey Dynamic Volume and I would recommend double compression, but then again... Hmmm... maybe two light compressors would be better than one HEAVY compressor. That is something I would do in my own mixing/editing environment.

If you are running the Audyssey and like how it sounds in general, then lets just start with the settings on PG 37 and set the Dynamic Volume to at least medium. This will be a subjective setting as only you will know if you want more or less dynamic range.

So...

1. Room size
2. Is DX low overall?
3. Is DX fine, then things get too loud during action scenes. Too much Dynamic range?
4. When you ran the Audyssey calibration, how many sample points did you do?

Best,
Drew


invalid
1,376 posts
 
Thank you for your response. I have never heard the Duetta Sigs. I bet they sound AWESOME!!! I am now a fan of the technology.

How do they hold up over time. This is still a concern of mine. I am so used the traditional speaker designs and how they hold up. Any thoughts on how this technology fares over time??

Thank you!




The foam that is between the clamps and bass foils deteriorates and then they can resonate very bad. There is a diy fix for this, but the current foil manufacturer frowns upon this if you ever want then replaced.
drewde OP
53 posts
 
@ericsch Yes I am starting with the basics. Again you and others are complaining that they dynamic range of Theatrical Film mixes is too great for your liking. Period.

When the the film says "Directed by Ericsch" (or whatever your name is) then you can decide how much dynamic range you want in your film. It appears many of those complaining prefer the limited dynamic range imposed by Broadcast TV. I can tell you from personal experience when you play those tracks in a Theatrical environment - It sounds horrible.

Here are some great examples of Classical pieces that also have tremendous Dynamic range. 

Mahler Symphony 9 - Claudio Abbado/Berlin (Deutsches Gram.)
Stravinsky 'Rite of Spring,' - Valery Gergiev/Kirov (Philips)
Shostakovich 10 - Karajan/Berlin (DG)
Sibelius 5 - Vanska/Lahti (BIS)
Beethoven 9 - Vanska/Minnesota (BIS)
Arvo Part - Lamentate (ECM)
Benjamin Britten "War Requiem" - Rattle (EMI)
Verdi Requiem - Abbado (EMI)
Brahms "German Requiem" - Klemperer (EMI)
Bartok "Concerto for Orchestra" - Reiner (RCA)
Beethoven 5&7th symphs - Kleiber (DG)
Tchaikovsky 6th Symph - Pletnev (Virgin)

Sure they do not have DX as one person mentioned, but if listening on a properly calibrated system (usually just the basics will suffice) one should be able to hear the DX. If the loud scenes are too loud for your personal preferences then you need to utilize some of the MANY built in compressors available to you. NOT decide for the rest of the film going audience that things need to be set to your liking.

More than likely you don't even LIKE the movies that you are complaining about... just a guess, but it is usually the case in my past experience. Is there a film you really like that has this problem. Someone mentioned Lord Of The Rings. I did not work on that series but am friends with many of those that did. In my opinion they are great sounding tracks. My kids actually watch a lot of those over and over on a smaller system setup at home Just some old B&W CDM 7 in 5.1 I bought when I first got married. All I could afford at the time. My kids will be playing these films in the background all the time and we don't really have any issues with things getting out of control.

And nobody has suggested that anyone has any hearing issues.

When we are mixing these films do you honestly think we just say wow things are too loud and we can't hear any of the dialogue so oh well... Really???

Not every film will have big dynamic range issues. It is relative to the content of the film. Most of the times I hear this complaint with regards to action films. A film like  MEET JOE BLACK is not going to pop up as a film with too much dynamic range because the story doesn't require it. But if you are watching Saving Private Ryan, Apollo 13, Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World, etc... well then the story content does demand and benefits from having the ability to go from a whisper to loud.

I don't know what else to say about the issue other than please use the MANY tools available to you so that you can enjoy films the way you want to watch them. But please don't feel the need to attack an entire community of people that have dedicated their lives to this craft because you don't like how films are mixed. You are completely entitled to your opinion as is everyone... but it is just that, your opinion.

By the way... most of us get our hearing tested at least on a yearly basis. Surprisingly many of us have hearing that is far better than what our age would suggest.

Also a reminder that HEARING and LISTENING are two completely different disciplines. One is passive and the other is active. 


dukeofdoowop
13 posts
 
Drew
You are extremely generous. I will admit that my room is a setup nightmare. Unfortunately, it is a small house and our living room must also serve as a....living room.  The room is 30 x 15. The long wall is all glass and overlooks the river, so the room focuses on the view. Accordingly, the OLED monitor and speakers are arranged in front of the glass along the long wall and no room to move them away from the wall. Conversely, the listening position is only 12 feet away and the subwoofer is in a corner at the end of the wall. I know - audiophile heresy. 

I think the bottom line is I must rely on electronic tweaking. I think of Audessey as a beginning point (I ran two reference points), but the infinite options beyond that are mind blowing. It may well be that compensating for this setup nightmare is beyond the capabilities of Audessey. 

Yes the DX is low overall, so I crank the volume and get yelled at when the shooting starts. We also use captions a lot. I think this is a fairly common problem that seems to get worse the better the sound system. I have several systems, in other rooms, of lesser quality and have less of this problem.

If necessary I will have my dealer's tech come in and evaluate my settings.Unfortunately, he is 70 miles away. In the meantime, I very much appreciate your thoughts.

Dan

drewde OP
53 posts
 
I have received some other posts that I believe have been removed before I could respond still complaining that this is spam, advertisement, etc...

If you look at when I joined this group it was in May 7, 2017. Boy I sure played the long game to start a simple advertising thread!!!??!?!

I just didn't feel I had anything really exciting to post regarding my experience with a speaker until now. I get the weekly recap on Friday from Audiogon and just click on the topics that interest me. Sometimes nothing grabs me and I just delete the email. Sometimes almost all of the threads interest me.

I enjoy the group and plan on continuing. I have also refrained from posting once or twice in the past because these things can become a HUGE time suck. I am more than happy to help those that I can via email. If you live in LA I would be happy to come by and help out as well. But I am usually SO swamped with work that any free time I do have I spend with my family. 

I knew when I started this particular thread there would be some flack - It's fine and I enjoy the discussion. I don't enjoy insults to me or those I work with for well over 25 years in this industry. 

Thank you to all here who are interested in discussing, debating without resorting to ignorant attacks.

Best,
Drew
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