To amp or preamp?

Thanks @millercarbon. Never even heard of Raven amps before. That’s what I like about Audiogon. I always learn something about an approach or type of equipment I knew nothing about. Wasn’t considering integrated or a tube amp but sounds like if you had to choose between amp and preamp as making the biggest difference of the main components, it would be the amp? I have arriving any day now a Audible Illusions L3A. I’ll add that to the mix to hear if there’s any big difference between that and the C48. 

If I had to choose I would have to say like Eric Alexander when asked what is the most important part of a speaker, "Everything!" Its simply not true that the preamp is more important than the amp, or vice versa. Ditto speaker, speaker cable, power cord. People ask all the time what should I get a better turntable or cartridge? If all you care about is immediate impact on sound quality then it really does not matter. 

Where it matters is money and longer term plans. Where money comes into your question it is really, really hard to find separates that all together will sound as good as a really good integrated amp- without spending a lot more money. Its not that separates can't be better. They can. At the very highest of the high end its probably just about all separates. 

But at the level of us mortals with very finite funds you will find it is probably impossible to beat something like a Raven Blackhawk at $3800 with any combination of separates under I am gonna guess and throw out $5k. Although it could easily be twice that. That's because the most expensive part of any component is the chassis, face plate, knobs and stuff. Next to that is power supplies. The first is cosmetic but the second makes a huge difference.  

So the separates designer of a $5k preamp has to budget a grand for a faceplate that does nothing for sound. Same for the amp. Integrated designer only budgets the one time. That's a cool grand he can plow into quality caps and stuff that actually makes a difference. People can argue but all they can do is plug in different numbers they can do nothing to change the fundamental math of it costs way more to make two boxes than one. 

Then when you get the two you need to budget for a quality interconnect, something you don't even need with an integrated. People like to forget about that. But its part of the total. Ditto power cord, cones or springs, fuse, whatever you use to make it better, you just need more of with separates. 

Its really no contest, not even close, at least not until you get up into the very high end with well into five digit price tags- and maybe not even then. We have a guy around here willgolf who has the funds and travels the world and the one he seems most smitten with is the Raven Reflection MkII. That's the one I have my eye on. Prima Luna would be a contender were it not made in China but even if it were made here it doesn't seem to be at quite the quality level of Raven.  

https://youtu.be/Gcd76DZmbdY?t=112
My views on this (integrated vs separates) aren't all technical arguments. I actually was looking for separates and had spent a lot of time searching out a good combination when a dealer friend suggested I try an Aronov integrated. Wasn't even considering a tube amp let alone an integrated and was really surprised when it sounded better than the McCormack DNA1 that was the best amp I had heard at the time. Then when I realized I could sell the McCormack for almost enough to buy the Aronov, and then not have to buy a preamp at all, let alone interconnect, power cord- it was the most no-brainer ever.  

That was a very long time ago. A lot has changed since then, and a lot of my thinking on things has changed. But not on this. And check out that video. Can you believe this guy is so obsessed he uses three different high end resistors and even different solder? Incredible!

I've never seen or heard them, I surely would enjoy a listen.

A quick search gave me OEM site, and Stereophile Review, ...

You mentioned speaker detail, I thought I would pass on this comment about the tweeters narrow vertical dispersion, some people raising the back of the speakers a bit to direct the tweeter to their seated ear height.

FLOOR LOUDSPEAKER REVIEWSGoldenEar Technology Triton One loudspeaker 

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COMMENTSSo it's true!Submitted by goodfellas27 on February 4, 2015 - 12:59pm

I have read a number of comments from listeners/reviewers who found the dispersion of the High-Velocity Folded Ribbon tweeter (HVFR) to be quite limited. CNET observed " I did note some treble softening when I stood up; so it appears that the tweeter's vertical dispersion is limited."

You have the same problem "the tweeter axes fired somewhat over my head."

I am surprise that a 5K speaker have such limitation; a poorly design choice.

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Re: So it's trueSubmitted by John Atkinson on February 4, 2015 - 4:57pm

goodfellas27 wrote: CNET observed " I did note some treble softening when I stood up; so it appears that the tweeter's vertical dispersion is limited."

You have the same problem "the tweeter axes fired somewhat over my head."

Look at the measurements. Yes, the tweeter's output falls more than 5 degrees above axis but as the tweeter is already 40" from the floor, this is not an issue. As Bob Deutsch said, the back of the speaker can easily be raised slightly for those whose ears are lower than 40".

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Your speakers are ideal to try tube amps, that complicates your options doesn't it.

I had an older McIntosh SS pair: Amp: MC2250 (tested accurate to 305 wpc); Pre-Amp: C28

I sold them, went to McIntosh Tube Tuner/Preamp mx110z; Cayin Integrated Tube Amp A88T. 

Prior SS pair were essentially invisible. I prefer the tube units, as do all my audiophile friends and others less involved with musical reproduction variations. 

My prior TT had an optional built-in phono preamp, and surprisingly I preferred it to the C28's phono. 

Changing to mx110z McIntosh Tube tuner/preamp, I definitely prefer/love it's phono. My first MC cartridge, I chose to use a SUT to retain the use of the mx110z's phono stage.

Your C48 Preamp is certainly full of inputs, including digital (I know nothing about digital), and features galore, it would be hard to part with, but ...

Prior to my change, I had shootouts between SS 305 wpc; 35 wpc tube receiver; 30 wpc tube mono-blocks. (3 sets speaker wires to banana plugs at speakers). The tube mono-blocks always won. Same listening sessions, same music, LP always beat CD, Reel to Reel tape always beat LP.  

@millercarbon thanks for taking the time to offer your feedback. Informed and interesting takes. Millercarbon you’ve got me thinking about an integrated. A McIntosh integrated was my first audiophile amp. I went on to try separates cause at the time of my learning curve I thought separates were always better than integrated. However, you make some good points on investment value regarding saving money on interconnects, power cords, etc. As a guitar player, tube amps are the way to go for most good players. For audio gear, I’ve leaned toward SS cause my listening sessions usually aren’t that long and don’t want to wait for the tubes to get all fired up before the amp sound it’s best. Also, what about the cost of tubes and rolling them, etc? That’s an ongoing expense to factor. I did look at the video link you shared. The Raven owner seemed committed to quality. I had never heard of Raven before. How long have they been in business? Their website is frustrating. I can’t get any product detail on their items. Also, the owner in the video says the company is in Texas but the website says they’re based in Louisiana? Also, their amps are listed at mostly 20 watts. Seems kind of low and concerned about enough power. What does they equal to SS? Anyhow, I’m open to retooling everything right now from my amp to speakers. Any other recommendations on integrated’s are welcome as with preamps.