Questions on next steps with my power amp

Yeah sorry its nothing to do with that amp in particular. The whole HT thing is a great big peeve of mine. I’m as big a cinephile as audiophile. Might love movies even more, if such a thing is possible. So when I remodeled and added a home theater of course I went shopping for the whole home theater setup.

Except I did what you’re supposed to do, went and listened and compared. Starting with all the recommended home theater components. And some other stuff, long as I’m there. Which thanks to all the BS home theater reviews- just like the one you read- I wasted months, many MONTHS chasing around trying to do what they all said I should do, the whole 5.1 channel thing. Until eventually, reluctantly, concluding there is no such thing as high end quality sound in HT. Does not exist. Period.

Oh, its not that you can’t do multi-channel and have it sound pretty darn good. Its that whatever amount you spend to achieve that, you could have a whole lot better sound with stereo. Its not even close.

Like, to give you some idea- the $600 your amp cost, I bet you could find a stereo integrated that sounds a whole lot better for the same $600. Which means instead of needing a pre-amp, and interconnect to connect them, and two power cords to plug them in.... you get the picture.

So now every chance I get I try and save people from that whole vast wasteland.

Something to know about reviews- they are at the very most filters to help you decide which components might be worth auditioning. Other than that you’re better off thinking of them as infomercials. You can learn something from them, it just takes forever.

Like this one, it says right up front that this amp "raises bar on performance/price ratio of multi-channel amplifier." Multi-channel, that qualifier is the first clue that should get you thinking. Then under Cons it says, "Nothing of consequence." Really? Remember what I said about infomercial? Published 2/16/15. Four years ago. They talk about the power supply, with pictures, which is great. What they don’t do is give you any idea how inadequate this is compared to what you would find in a stereo component. For that you have to read a lot of reviews, glean a whole lot of knowledge of component construction, power supplies, etc. (Or read a really good book like Robert Harley’s Complete Guide to High End Audio https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Guide-High-End-Audio/dp/0978649311 )

None of which is a knock on you, or even this review. Everyone here has made the same mistake. Lots still do. Stereophile is a lot better but I read them the same critical way. Michael Fremer is the world authority on turntables. Great guy, personally helped me pick my first turntable. And arm. Makes no difference. I read him just as critically as anyone. He’s a filter. A really informative, entertaining and hella-good filter, but a filter nonetheless.

The only reviewer whose opinion really matters is you. At the rate you’re going, actually trying and listening and comparing, keep going, you’re well on your way to being a good one.

Thanks Millercarbon. I appreciate what you’ve written. I just received the part you recommended. I will try it out soon. But I did write Outlaw and they will let me return the amp. If I would start over. What components would you recommend? I have some some vintage Klipsch Heresy 2 speakers. I have a Sony turntable I inherited from my dad. I just want a very nice sounding system with power to give full sound. Not loud sound. I remember a long time ago I bought some nice KEF speakers. At the audio place they had them plugged into a McIntosh Amp. It sounded like multiple speakers were turned on. I’ve been chasing that sound. I don’t mind spending if I have to but I also don’t mind saving if a new brand brings amazing sound without the name recognition.

Oh wow they will take the Outlaw back? That is great news! Send it back. For what you spent we can do a lot better. Equally great, the Klipsch Heresy are a very good and maybe even more important very efficient and easy to drive speaker!

So first let's make sure we're all on the same page. You inherited from your dad a tape deck, turntable, and an Onkyo receiver with a phono stage. Also you have Klipsch Heresy II speakers, presumably inherited as well. Want to keep everything straight partly to understand your options and also there's not only the usefulness but sentimental value involved. So let me know.

In any case the Klipsch really are good, and I know that first hand too. Easy to drive and very efficient you will not need a lot of watts which is great it leaves you free to focus on quality. A lot of guys fall into the trap of hard to drive or inefficient speakers and you have no idea how much easier it will be for you getting really good sound just from that one lucky break!

So now here's the thing- its not WHAT you buy, its HOW you buy it. 

What that means is you can forget about any and all advice telling you to go buy any particular component. Its not what you buy. Its how you buy. And the only way to buy is by what you yourself actually hear when you go and listen to it. 

What I see then is you've got a $1.6k budget- $650 from returning the Outlaw plus the $1k you can afford. You have your source components- tape player and turntable- you have your amp (Onkyo receiver) and speakers. And the Onkyo has a phono stage, which means you can use it for nothing but a phono stage if need be. And you have the LOC, which means you can also use the Onkyo as a pre-amp if need be.

Sorry if I'm being tedious, its just that I find it really helps to think of these things in terms of function. Especially when it comes to working out options. If for example you find a really good integrated and you like everything except it has no phono stage, well you can use the Onkyo as your phono stage until you are ready to get a better one. Which might actually happen.

Right now it seems to me you are sitting pretty. You got a fairly decent stereo right now, fully functional, and with a pretty darn good set of speakers. I've done whole systems that turned out great for much less than your budget, and that was starting from zero.

In your case, most likely, your best use of your $1600 will be to find a nice integrated amp, phono stage, speaker cables, a power cord for the integrated, and one or more interconnects. When you budget it out that works out to something like a $500 integrated, $300 phono stage, $400 speaker cable, $200 power cord and $200 interconnect. 

I'm not saying that's what you do, this is all just planting the seed in your mind saying this is how you go about it. How matters more than what, remember. You'd probably be smart to budget a little less for each of these keeping in mind that maybe along the way you start thinking the turntable would be a lot better with a better cartridge (very likely) or sitting on a nice base (extremely likely) or with a ZeroStat and some cleaner (beyond likely- for certain).

Probably reading this right now this makes very little sense. Eventually though as you go and listen and compare you will come to realize that yes indeed a really good amp and speakers are wasted if connected with crappy speaker wire.  The same goes for everything else. Because it all goes together. And little things like interconnects that don't seem like they could matter very much actually matter quite a lot. Your speakers are good enough you will be able to hear the difference when you try out some really good speaker cables. Or when you hook up a better amp.

Or when you move the speakers. Which actually comes first. Most important thing of all, speaker placement, and we haven't even mentioned it yet. 

That sound you've been chasing? You'll get there. And then some.

Millercarbon, I just read your post. I need to process it and then read it again, but I think I hear what you're saying. I need to think through even the less sexy components like cables and speaker wire. I didn't know the power cable was that important. I need to read more about it. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and I will let you know what I do.