Has Anyone Uesed A PrimaLuna Amp With Harbeth Speaker's

Power means undistorted and uncompressed dynamics true, but if you have enough power you have enough power and having more buys you nothing, and people should not put weight on that as any guarantee of performance.  

 

There is no relationship to quality. Period. Wattage means only one thing. Volume.  

But you’re saying to yourself bigger amps sound better, and it’s because of power, right? Well, no. You can buy a Sony 100 watt per channel receiver for $148. It weighs 14 pounds and IT WILL bench out at 100 watts. And at low distortion to boot!!  

Now look at a pair of Pass Labs XA60.5 monoblocks. They weight 62 pounds each and cost well over $10,000 a pair. And they are only 60 watts. And that's it.  Is this a silly comparison? No, because it illustrates the fact. The Pass sounds better because of parts quality. Transformer size, capacitors, number of output devices, and all the other things that add weight to a quality amplifier. 

***Within a particular brand it’s okay to assume more power is better. But don’t think for a moment a 200 watt amp from Brand A will sound better than a 100 watt amp from Brand B***

In tube amplifiers it gets even trickier. Many high power tube amps get that power by simply running the tubes harder. PrimaLuna could have been designed to be 36 watts or 100 watts from a pair of tubes by simply raising plate and screen voltage and biasing harder.  Higher voltages results in tube shorts, and even if the amp doesn’t break, the tubes wear out quickly. PrimaLuna is the only company proud to say “low power on purpose” because they run the tubes cool. They want a product that you can use every day without having to think about counting hours and how much it costs. What’s fun about hifi if you can’t use it?

Some of the worst sounding tube amps I’ve ever heard had a ton of power. What they lacked was bandwidth. Power has no influence on whether or not the deepest bass or even the highest highs are sent to the speakers. Bandwidth in a tube amplifier is dictated by output transformers, the physical part that actually couples your speaker drivers to the amplifier. 

***Listen to me when I say this. Output transformers are the single most important and most expensive part in any tube amplifier*** 

Even the largest manufacturers buy them off-the-shelf and many spend as little as they can to make a buck.  Trust me I know these guys.  The bigger the company the more they are all about profit margin.  

Output transformers are half art and half science.  PrimaLuna not only designs but winds their own output transformers in house.  Look at the weight of PrimaLuna amps and preamps.    That's serious iron for both power and output transformers.  

Hey Yogiboy....great article!!

Here's a good one for you guys and gals http://ken-gilbert.com/images/pdf/taste_of_tubes.pdf

upscaleaudio205 posts03-01-2018 4:45amRead Herb Reichert’s Stereophile review of the 86dB efficient Dynaudio Contour 20 with the SMALLEST $2199 PrimaLuna power amp. He stated "The combo of Dynaudio Contour 20s and PrimaLuna ProLogue Premium played all the mountain ennui and fierce forward momentum that make classic bluegrass unique in the American songbook". https://www.stereophile.com/content/dynaudio-contour-20-loudspeaker

Or the 87dB KEF Q350 where he preferred it over amps with many times more power, and higher cost. https://www.stereophile.com/content/kef-q350-loudspeaker

Or this review of Wilson Sabrinas where the 36wpc $3199 DiaLogue Premium bested the $10,000 ARC REF75SE . The reviewer said "In spite of the low absolute power, the sound was incredibly captivating and dynamics were now seemingly more expansive than with either of the big transistor amps as well as the Ref 75." http://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/review/loudspeaker-reviews/wilson-sabrina/

I’ve had a lot of Harbeth owners use PrimaLuna and can’t think of any that were not happy off hand. If you like to play your music loud in a bigger room maybe an HP would be better, but for many people a 36 watt PrimaLuna will be fabulous.

I would never base any purchase decision of wattage. Wattage means nothing except volume. It has no effect on bass response or sound quality.

It may be your preference to not look at the amp wattage prior to a purchase but the spec is still an important factor. The main problem is most amp manufacturers have the tendency to make the figures look good on paper. It’s not entirely down to watts but the transient power from the power supply (transformer) where a robust power supply will be able to control voltage and amp swings more effectively than a lesser one.

Some amps which show higher watts on paper may sound significantly less powerful when compared to one that has a lower watt figure. Case in point, a 60 or 70W amp which sounds much more powerful than a 100W or 150W amp. When specifying power output, most amp manufacturers tend to "over-specify" the figures based on test resistors which do not reflect on real world performance. Apart from this factor, the power supply that can deliver the transient power (measured in VA) will also play a role.

In summary, I disagree with your last paragraph. In proper context, the power that is required to effectively drive the speakers is rather significant and will have bearing on sound quality. It’s not all about volume but other aspects of sound reproduction or amplifier design such as transient delivery which is influenced by slew rate and current rise times.

Mcintosh SS amp and pre sound amazing with C7.  I bet a mcintosh integrated would also be great.    I'm still curious what the mc275 would be like? Rogue Cronus 2 sounded muddy with the C7 imo.  

It’s parts count. Not watts. Like I said, a $148 Sony receiver will meet it's 100wpc specs and at low distortion.  Look at the internal parts count, quality of parts, and weight.  Use Google Images and believe nobody.  

We recently had a double-blind level matched comparison between the $8500 75wpc Audio Research VSI75 and the $3399 PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium equipped with the same KT150 output tubes here at my store for members of Audiogon. Double-blind and level matched to within .1dB is the only real way to do it. The PrimaLuna had much less power. Not one person picked the VSI75 as better.

I have a latest production 75wpc McIntosh MC275 here with 200 hours on it, and minutes ago did a level matched A/B against a bone stock $3199 36wpc PrimaLuna DiaLogue Premium. No comparison. Most notably in dynamics. I’m leaving it hooked up for any Agon members to come and spend some time and they can report back here. We’re going to have the same comparison for the LA Orange County Audio Society when they have their meeting here on March 18.

Both the ARC and Mac amps are good amps. Good amps, good companies. Our position is get better electronics for less money and invest the difference in better speakers where you should invest the most dollars.