06-08-12: Geoffkait
Bryon, you're being argumentative again.
06-08-12: Chadeffect
Now we are dissecting arguments & character. Bryon is excellent at keeping things clear. Even so we still have got lost.
Gentlemen - I freely admit that my last post was argumentative in the most literal sense. But it wasn't motivated by contrariness. It was motivated by something more significant, as I'll try to explain in this post.
Chad - I certainly understand why you feel we've gotten lost. In relation to the topic of fuses, we are lost. But there's another topic woven into this thread, and woven into a great many threads here on A'gon. It's the topic of Truth.
I'm not talking about who knows the Truth and who doesn't. I'm talking about how people conduct themselves during disagreements about the Truth... there are people who are inclined to investigate what MIGHT BE true and there are people who are not. From what I can tell, the folks who arent inclined to investigate during disagreements fall into one of two categories
1. People who think they already know the Truth.
2. People who have no allegiance to the Truth.
People who think they already know the Truth often resist efforts to investigate it, especially when that investigation contradicts what they know to be true. This is a Dogmatist.
People who have no allegiance to the Truth often confound efforts to investigate it, especially when that investigation threatens their agenda. This is an Obscurantist.
Dogmatism and Obscurantism are among the biggest obstacles to constructive conversations when there is a disagreement about the Truth. The Dogmatists tactic is the Method of Assertion and requires the use of force. The Obscurantists tactic is the Method of Evasion and requires the use of misdirection. This thread has seen both force and misdirection used in the service of Dogmatism and Obscurantism.
Occasionally the Dogmatist and the Obscurantist become allies. They unite against their common enemy: the Investigator. A person who investigates the Truth during disagreements is a threat to the Dogmatists knowledge and to the Obscurantists agenda. So together the Dogmatist and the Obscurantist resist and confound the Investigator, using force to make him back down or misdirection to make him give up.
And that brings us back to the subject of argumentativeness. The only way to combat the Dogmatist is to NOT back down in the face of force. The only way to combat the Obscurantist is to NOT give up in the face of misdirection. The inevitable result of either is the same... arguments. Lots of them. THAT is the motive behind my last post, and ones like it. This should come as no surprise to Geoff, at least. He and I have been down this road before.
You may be wondering if any of this could possibly matter enough to spend this kind of time discussing it. I believe it does. Im getting tired so Ill just quote myself from other threads. Heres why, IMO, Dogmatism matters
Willful dogmatism, in the sense I intend it, is deliberately obstructionist... I mention this because I think its relevant to a significant number of posts on Agon, in which ideas are presented as undeniably true, without consideration of evidence or the opinions of others. Some of those folks seem to be deliberate obstructionists - in other words, willfully dogmatic. Others seem to be uninformed, misinformed, or anti-informed.
The inflexibility that the Dogmatist has toward his own knowledge is typically accompanied by hostility toward the knowledge of others, or even hostility toward knowledge more generally. Quoting myself...
Hostility toward knowledge stalls the progress of ideas, stifles efforts to reduce human suffering, and threatens the very survival of our species. Yes, literally.
Put simply, Dogmatism breeds ignorance and intolerance.
And heres why, IMO, Obscurantism matters. Me again...
Obscurantism may be harmless in the audio world, but it isn't harmless in the real world. In the real world, obscurantism thrives in the form of political propaganda and economic deception. If you need an illustration of this, look no further than the recent financial crisis. The world was brought to the brink of economic oblivion by the actions of people armed with Multifactor Derivatives, Collateralized Debt Obligations, Credit Default Swaps, and a host of other financial instruments designed with one thing in mind: Obscurantism.
Obscurantism is used to control what people think, or more to the point, what people DON'T think. That was Orwell's great insight, that obscurantism makes certain ways of thinking impossible, and that effect can be used to any end whatsoever. As he predicted, in industrialized nations of instant communication, obscurantism is a weapon. It may be THE weapon.
Put simply, Obscurantism breeds deception and exploitation.
The ignorance and intolerance bred by Dogmatism combined with the deception and exploitation bred by Obscurantism account for a vast amount of human conflict, inequality, and suffering. IMO, standing up to those forces is a worthwhile undertaking, even when its only in the very humble form thats possible here.
And with that, I would say that we are no longer lost.
Bryon
