Anyone heard of DK design group?

Hmmmm... Well, at least you ("Kimballcorson") have some history here at the 'Gon, (unlike a lot of other somewhat suspicious 1st time posters who also just happen to be "new" members.)

I have to admit to still being a little skeptical of the DK Design amp. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure its a darn nice pc. o' gear, but I just don't see what possible "wiz-bang-whoo-ville" engineering is going on inside this thing that would account for it being SO good.

I mean at least with some of the new digital stuff (Tri-path, ICE modules, etc.) one is hopeful that there just MIGHT be something there, inside, that could create a sonic revelation. But again, the DK Design, at least as far as I can tell, doesn't break any new engineering ground.

I once owned a similar amp (Llano Trinity) which had the same basic "hybrid" design and layout, same rolling of the driver tubes (sans preamp section), and while it was a great amp, I'm not sure it would have "killed" a set of Cary V12's, or Levinson 20.6's.

I can see where some of the frustration is coming form both at this thread and at others relating to DK Design though, as we all get a little tired of reading & hearing about "the best _____ on earth!" "Absolutely KILLS all comers'!!" Etc., etc. The problem is, it might just BE the best, to THAT particular person or reviewer, but what basis of comparison does any of us REALLY have? Example, I wish anyone (ESPECIALLY "pro reviewers") who pen a product review would state the following criteria:

1.) What other products have they actually OWNED in the stated category.

2.) How long have they been reviewing

3.) What are ALL of the other components, speakers, tweaks, hair gel, etc. used in conjunction with the piece in review.

I personally think No. 1, above, is especially important, as many times I read a "professional" reviewer RAVING on something, only to discover that this guy has listed as his own system, something like "home built 2-way loudspeakers", "1985 Rotel CD player", "1977 Pioneer SX1980 receiver", etc. (OK , maybe the last two were slight exaggerations, but you get my drift). Lots of times these so called "reviewers" don't even have components as high caliber as many of us! Unless you've reviewed EVERY SINGLE AMP on the face of the friggin' earth, how can ANYBODY make such drastic claims??

Well, I guess it all come down to the fact that DK Design is offering a 30 day trial from their dealers, so... I guess I'll just have to put up & shut up and try one for myself (but I must confess, my Halo JC-1's aren't even the LEAST bit nervous though... we'll see ;)

Denf,

I share your same concerns. I have requested both through this forum as well as privately for people to give me a brief list of their listening preferences, as well as other amps that they have had in the past. Thus far, I've received no responses.

The turn around time between getting a new product, falling in and out of love with it, and ultimately posting it up for sale, is usually 3-6 months. It will be interesting to see what happens as people own this product over time--or how many actually do choose to hang onto it for an extended period.

It comes out of the chute with tremendous hype, so consequently the expectations of a seasoned audio community are (and should be) quite high. On my first listen, I was not ready to trade in my Audio Aero Prima hybrid for one, but I also did not hear it at home, on our system. Therefore, it was certainly not a fair A/B comparison.

Interesting conversation, for sure...

I suggested in the other more recent thread posted by DK himself that he send a few samples to some of the "seasoned veterans" who could review it, send it back and then comment on it here on the Gon. It wouldn't be me, but I'm sure that AlbertPorter or numerous others might be willing to give it a try.

Then...pending the outcome...all the high praise the DK has *supposedly been getting might carry a little weight.

I'd like to provide a few comments, if I may...

1) We are a dealer for numerous products, including the DK Design Group integrated being discussed here. We obviously have a lot of bias. However:

2) I, as the owner of our company, picked up the DK Design Group line without ever hearing the amplifier in question. I went solely on the conversations I had with other dealers who had heard the amplifier and the opinions of owners whose ears I trusted. I plunked down my hard earned cash to bring in stock of the units so that I could hear the darn thing for myself.

3) In the past 15 years I have owned or spent EXTENSIVE review time in my own system, with my own gear, amplifiers from the following manufacturers: Krell, Levinson, Pass Labs, Plinius, Threshold, Forte, Llano, Monarchy Audio, Bryston, Classe, Sim Audio, B&K Components, ATI, Adcom, Bel Canto Design, Spectron, EAD, Butler Audio, Musical Fidelity, Linn, Opera Audio, Hafler, Carver Professional, Carver, Audio Research, Cary Audio, Belles, McCormack, Arragon, Acurus, YBA, Dynaco, and so many more I can't recall at the moment.... For each manufacturer listed, I have often had 2, 3, 4, or more models of their amplifiers over the years. I have also designed and built ~40 different vacuum tube amplifier designs over the years, ranging from 300B to push pull pentodes, to 211 and 845 amps.

I have owned more speakers than I care to recall. I have also designed and built at least 100 different speaker designs of my own, from line arrays and simple 2 ways, to extreme high efficiency designs. We now sell Von Scweikert Audio, Usher Audio, Phase Technology and other brands. I've been to the shows and heard the insanely priced signature pieces from a lot of manufacturers.

I know what sounds good to me, what sounds real to me. I'm not someone who has spent their life listening to a boombox and this is their first expensive electronics purchase. I have participated in a great deal of blind test sessions, spent more time than I care to remember listening to various gear with friends, listening to hundreds of different systems over the years with equipment from even more manufacturers than I can remember. I try as best I can not to get caught up in the hype of the new hot product of the week. I don't bull$*T and if I think something sounds like crap, I will say that it sounds like crap to anyone who cares to know my opinion.

4) The DK Design integrated amplifier lives up to the hype a lot better than other products I have previously seen touted. I have now spent some time with the integrated. It is nowhere near broken in yet as I only received my stock last Friday. However, it is a very, very, very good sounding integrated amplifier that is a value at its price point. The stock tubes need to be replaced as they seriously hold back the performance capabilities of the amplifier. It's a product that I believe is worth its asking price compared to what else I have heard at a similar price point.

5) Almost all dealers that are advertising the product, be it here on Audiogon (I fall into this category), or in a local environment are offering a money back guarantee on this product. One of the things that came up on the DK thread that is now closed kind of raised my ire a bit and I wanted to address it here:

\\\BEGIN COPIED TEXT
originally posted by Ellery911
I have a B.S. in Economics but will stay away from a political discussion and keep it on topic.

Lets say I wanted to listen to this amp judge for myself...I guess I could order one from one of the online retailers as I don't have any retailers near me...and I understand that there is some sort of guarantee...but when I read the fine print regarding returns on one site...a DK dealer...this is what I saw...verbatim

"
The final determination of what is "saleable" and "complete" condition is at our sole discretion. Returned items failing to meet these conditions may be subject to a higher return fee, they may be returned to you at your expense, or they may not be returned to you at all.
"

Not returned to me at all?

Now I REALLY want to rush out & buy one.
///END COPIED TEXT

First of all, that is a direct quote from my website. However, it is not the complete quote concerning determination of condition (it's missing the sentence "Please do not try to return any item that you have damaged, scratched, has lost pieces or manuals, mutilated packaging or has otherwise been turned into junk. Please check with us before you return items of uncertain condition."), nor is it the complete story on how returns are handled for individual items. It is taken completely out of context. Please read the policy in its entirety at http://www.hometheaterdoc.com/terms.html and don't take things out of context. If you have some concern over the policy, contact me for a clarification instead of posting it to start some sort of flame at the manufacturer.

We take great pride in going way above and beyond what other local dealers will do to service our customers. As an audiophile, I understand that there is no substitute for being able to try a piece of gear within your own system to see if the unit is right for you and if there is synergy with the other components in the chain. That is why for customers in our area we have gone out of our way to allow extensive in home audition periods of our demo gear. On a case by case basis, we have faaaaaar exceed our stated policies to allow a potential client adequate time to evaluate the piece. We do in-home demonstations, and deliver demo gear to the client for their evaluation (which in the case of large speakers is a really big pain in the derriere). However, we're not funded by philanthropic billionaires who afford us endless funding to send out brand new, sealed components to anyone who asks for them to try out for 6 months and return them for a full refund when they decide to move onto another component. Oh and let's not forget that they want that component for $10 over dealer cost to begin with....

One final point and I'll stop hijacking this thread... Many online vendors sell a tremendous amount of different products, all of which sell at various price points, all at varying degrees of profitability, be it $20 digital interconnects to $30,000 3 chip DLP projectors. At some point there has to be an overall policy for returns which common sense should tell the purchaser would be open to interpretation on a case by case basis. If you buy a $20 digital cable, "accidentally" cut it open and then seemingly get it caught in the garbage disposal, don't expect a full refund on that product. Nor should you expect that the product will be returned to you free of charge if the retailer doesn't have any means to charge you for the shipping to return the completely worthless item back to you (because you paid via money order, etc. instead of credit card).... trust me, this happens.... The policy is put in place to protect the retailer from being bombarded by folks buying something, smashing it, and then trying to take it back for a refund as if nothing was wrong. It's also trying to protect from having someone buy a $12K projector, put 300 hours on the bulb to see if they like it, then return it and expect a full refund so they can buy it from someone else.... If that piece was sold for only a couple hundred bucks over dealer cost, the dealer obviously can't sell it as new, and certainly can't make a profit on the piece given the discounted pricing for new pieces....

As for the DK Design Group piece, it is such a good component, and dealers are so confident that TRUE buyers will love it, that they are offering 30 day money back guarantees with no restocking fees. All you are out is the cost of shipping to try the unit for 30 days in your own system. They're so confident it won't come back they are sometimes sending out new, sealed units instead of a demo piece. At some point, some risk has to be taken on by the customer. If you have a local dealer, they will more than likely allow you to try out the amp in your system. If you don't have a local dealer, it's going to cost you a few bucks in shipping to try it out. Given what some of us spend on our electronics, that's about as risk free an opportunity you can have to try out a new piece of equipment. You certainly don't get that opportunity with every other manufacturer's product. It's certainly better than having to buy new sound unheard, try it out and then have to lose your shirt selling it here to the scavengers on audiogon :)

Anyways, long story short.... it's a very good amplifier and worth its asking price. In my opinion, after hearing the amplifier, they've earned the right to use over the top marketing hyperbole to describe how good they are.... it's certainly more deserving than a lot of other companies I've had experience with.....

Hometheaterdoc,

I appreciate the candor you offered on the DK Design amp. It was simply shameful the way some members gang-tackled Mr. Khesin. There are a few prima donnas here who just love to hear themselves talk. Mr. Khesin found out very quickly why very few manufacturers will participate here.

Thanks for the feedback and I hope we can hear more reasonable discussion about the "sound" (without the extraneous crap) of this amp in the future.