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Problems getting the best out of my Berning

Hello fellow Agoners,

I beckon for help from experienced users of the Berning ZH270! I just received mine new a week ago, and although it is an incredible amp, it is not meeting my expectations. HELP!

First the good news:

This is the fastest amp I have ever head, and it has virtually no noise floor. I am truly impressed with these aspects. It handles most everything with ease and clarity.

Now my system:

Proac 2.5 loudspeakers
Cary CD308 and Arcam FMJ CD23
Kimber PBJ Interconnnects
Audioquest Type 4 cables

(I've also used Dynaudio Audience 72's and all MIT cables, and Triangle Titus + Audioquest Slate cables and PBJ IC's).

OK - now to the problem:

On all three setups mentioned above, the amp seems strongly biased towards the midrange and upper midrange, resulting in a fatiguing presention. There is a significant decrease in bass (not detail, but the actual movement of air) from the other amps I have used for comparison (Classe CAP 101, Pass Aleph 3, Adcom GFA 5400). While the detail and fastness are truly amazing, the midrange emphasis is getting the worst of me!

I've spoken with David Berning and Frank S (FS Audio.com) and both encourage some tweaking to get rid of this perceived (psycho?) acoustic bias. Frank is going to send me some interconnects to try. David mentioned that others have changed the tubes. He doubts anything is wrong with the amp.

Is this all in my head, or have others had similar problems and needed to make adjustments to get it right? While all my other amps are currently SS, I have trouble believing that this is the "tube sound" (I've heard other tube amps). Other threads mention system tweaking to get rid of a "glare" with the ZH270, changing tubes, sensitivity to cabling. My perception of the sound is pretty strong - currently I like my Aleph 3 a whole lot more with the existing setup.

I'm willing to put some time and money into making this work - because in all other respects, this is an absolutely amazing amp. Perhaps it doesn't suit my ear - but I want the advantages of this amp without the disadvantages I just mentioned. Please - suggestions on what to do from all you experienced Berning fans... so many high commendations cannot be that far off (right?).
peter_s
ken_schwarz
2 posts
 
I loved my ZH270 and still miss it, but I couldn't afford to keep it after I bought a Siegfried...

In addition to the many things you've already mentioned, I found that the ZH270 was sensitive to the type of feet it sat on. My best results were leave out the cones and spikes and use the standard plastic feet on hard, heavy surface.

Cables do matter! The Siegfried is merciless in revealing colorations in the input cables...more so than the ZH270. I get nice neutral sound from Kimber KS-1011. I found that my two "silver" cables had undesirable "zip" in the sound on the Berning amps. Also, I found that monowiring gave a more pleasing sound than biwiring. I use the same biwire cable as before, but I connect the the high and low end cables together again at the speaker end. This gives me a much smoother high end. Your experience will surely vary, but it might be worth a try.

Are you using any power conditioners before the Berning? If so, try without them. I get noticibly better results with the PS Audio Ultimate Outlet.

After buying my Siegfried, I horsed around with substituting NOS tubes of various types. David Berning warned me that it can be a "real adventure" in finding tonal balance...and he was right! I am now back to the original tubes, including the ordinary Sovtek 6SN7s, and all is well. I was able to get best results by choosing different cables and repositioning my speakers.

Do you get the same tonal balance from both speakers? Try right and left alone with a mono signal from your preamp. If they are strikingly different, try swapping right and left speakers to rule out differences in tone to speaker placement. If the problem is in one channel, then you may indeed have a problem with your amp.
rhirsch's avatar
rhirsch
36 posts
 
Hi Peter. I'm the guy Ian mentioned with a setup similar to yours. For me break-in of the the ZH270 was an up and down affair, especially during the first 48hrs. Make sure you let it run continuously the first 2 days. Mine was a little on the lean side in the mid-bass to low-bass region in the beginning. That condition started changing around the 25-30 hour mark. Results may not be the same with 3hrs. here and 4hrs. there to achieve a collective 48. The Berning gear will let you know when the synergy is right in a way I have yet to experience with other mfgs. If a continuous and sufficient break-in period (no cable or equipment swapping during this time) doesn't satisfy I would then send it back to David and/or tube test inputs as suggested. Also, I would leave the Cary cdp running for at least 100hrs. non-stop as suggested in the Cary manual before any serious evaluation. Keep us posted.
allanbhaganinfo
121 posts
 
The chances that there is something wrong with the ZH-270 is extremely low to nil, chances that there might be a problem with a tube is somewhat higher.

I recommend that you leave the ZH-270 on for the next week or so and play as much music as possible through it, it will break-in more.

The tonality of a ZH-270 is as neutral as it gets, any and everything you do will make a difference in what you hear, unshielded cable, metal shelves, stacking, will all hamper/change performance, this is not a short coming of this amp, it's ultimate performance without coloration.

However, ultimate performance without coloration might not be for everyone, wait a week or so, then contact me and let me know where it's at.

Changing tubes is for taste, not to bring up the performance, not everyone is ready nor do they want an amp that reveals everything, there must over 60 ZH-270 owners, all extremely happy, so much so that used ZH-270's have one of the highest resale values in audio, that is if you can find one.

The tube changes can be suited for your taste, while keeping the attributes of the speed and clarity that Berning has designed into these amps, it's not a performance upgrade but a taste that you might be more use to, I hope this explains it better.
Allan
joe_stereo
21 posts
 
Hi, interesting thread....I'm with Alan....the Berning is so exquisitely revealing and transparent. Personally, I think you're hearing the cables, or the Berning needs to burn in some more. When I first got my ZH270 the only RCA I had around was a BEL interconnect. Sounded edgy and shrill. I did replace the first two AT7s with Telefunkenn NOS - an improvement, but not earth shattering. I must say that I did take the Berning to a Proac dealer and tried it with the 2.5s. I actually did not think it worked so well. Before the Berning we listened to the Plinius 102 with the Proac. If I had the 2.5s I would prefer the 102 I believe. Just my opinion based on a very limited audition (I love that speaker by the way!). On a lark I recently bought a pair of Ref 3a da Capo's off Audiogon. HEAVEN!!! Current system - SCD-1 (w/Kern Mods)--> Quatro Fils (XLR) --> Aleph P --> Jena Labs Symphony --> Berning --> Red Dawn rev II bi-wire --> Ref 3a da Capo (w/AP Luna sub). (I also have AP Virgos, but I prefer the Ref 3as with the Berning)
ultrakaz
187 posts
 
I agree that the amp should be sent back to Berning and also agree that cables, cd players and tubes should not be changed yet. Acceptable performance should be achieved out of the box.

However, being more than familiar with both the Z270 and the Proacs, I think that it might be a component mismatch.

Proacs are warm, smooth and laid back and use average drivers and cheap crossover components (yes, I know they cost $4500). They are not the last word in speed and transparency. The Berning, OTOH, is all about speed and transparency. This would leave me to believe that the Berning is not complementing the Proac's strengths, but revealing its weaknesses.

If the Berning does not work out try a Conrad Johnson Premier 11A (great relatively inexpensive amp and I regret selling mine) or Audio Research Vt100 (more power but has a fan in it). Stuart Tyler of Proac voices his speakers using Audio Research amps. Lastly, if you want the ease of solid state try the 47 Labs Gaincard; I was shocked by the musicality of this combination.
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