Hmmm lemme guess:
In SS amps the "right" watts are perhaps ones delivered or possible to deliver from Right channel.
Case solved?
In SS amps the "right" watts are perhaps ones delivered or possible to deliver from Right channel.
Case solved?
Which watts are the right watts in SS amps?
Hello Sports Fans!
More than a few people over the years on these pages have said only those SS amps which double down in output power as impedance drops are truly special or worthy amps. Eg., 200 @ 8ohms; 400 @ 4 ohms; 800 @ 2 ohms; etc.
Not every SS amp made does this trick. Some very expensive ones don’t quite get to twice their 8 ohm rated power when impedance halves to four ohms. BAT, darTZeel, Wells, and Ypsalon to name just a few.
An amps ‘‘soul’’ or it’s ‘voice’ is the main reason why I would opt in on choosing an amp initially and keeping it. Simultaneously , I’d consider its power and the demands of what ever speakers may be intended to be run with it or them.
I’ve heard, 80% of the music we are listening to is made in the first 20wpc! I’m sure there’s some wisdom in there somewhere as many SS amps running AB, are biased to class A Only for a small portion of the total output EX. 10 – 60 wpc of 150 or 250 wpc.
After all, any amps true output levels are a complete mystery when anyone is listening to music anyhow.
I suspect, not being able to actually measure true power consumption, the vast majority of listening sessions revolve around 60wpc or so being at hand with traditional modern reasonably efficient speakers.
Sure, there are those speakers which don’t fit into the traditional loudspeaker power needs mold such as panels or electrostats, and this ain’t about them.
The possibility of clipping a driver is about the only facet in amp to speaker matching which gives a person pause while pondering this or that amplifier.
I feel there is more to how good an amp is than its ability tou double output power with 50% drops in speaker impedance.
However, speakers are demanding more power lately. Many are coming out of the gates with 4 ohm ‘nominal’ IMPs which lower with fluctuations in frequency. Add in larger motors on larger drivers, multiple driver arrays, and on paper these SOTA speakers appear to need more power.
IMHO It is this note which introduces great concern.
I’ve read every article I can find on Vienna Acoustics Music. Each one says give them lots of watts for them to excel.
Many times good sounding speakers I’ve owned sounded better with more power, albeit from arguably a better amp.
I tend to believe having more than an adequate amount of cap power is indeed integral. … naturally the size and type of transformers in play possess a strong vote for an amps ability to successfully mate with speakers.
Controlling a driver’s ability to stop and restart is as well a key to great sound and only strong amplifiers can manage this feat. Usually this gets attributed to ‘damping’ factor, but damping as I read it is more a shadow than a tangible real world figure as it depends on numerous factors. Speaker cable length alone can alter damping factors.
A very good argument exists about those mega watt amps voices. Each 500 or 600 wpc amp or amps, I’ve heard have had stellar voices too, not merely more watts.
So is it predominately these mega watt power house amps souls or their capacities that fuels the speakers presentation?
Would you buy an ‘uber expensive’ amp based more on its voice or soul, than on its ability to output loads of watts, even if you feel the amp may be somewhat under powered for the application?
Choosing this latter option also saves one money as the more powerful amps do cost more than their lower outputting siblings.
Please, share your experiences if possible.
Tanks muchly!
More than a few people over the years on these pages have said only those SS amps which double down in output power as impedance drops are truly special or worthy amps. Eg., 200 @ 8ohms; 400 @ 4 ohms; 800 @ 2 ohms; etc.
Not every SS amp made does this trick. Some very expensive ones don’t quite get to twice their 8 ohm rated power when impedance halves to four ohms. BAT, darTZeel, Wells, and Ypsalon to name just a few.
An amps ‘‘soul’’ or it’s ‘voice’ is the main reason why I would opt in on choosing an amp initially and keeping it. Simultaneously , I’d consider its power and the demands of what ever speakers may be intended to be run with it or them.
I’ve heard, 80% of the music we are listening to is made in the first 20wpc! I’m sure there’s some wisdom in there somewhere as many SS amps running AB, are biased to class A Only for a small portion of the total output EX. 10 – 60 wpc of 150 or 250 wpc.
After all, any amps true output levels are a complete mystery when anyone is listening to music anyhow.
I suspect, not being able to actually measure true power consumption, the vast majority of listening sessions revolve around 60wpc or so being at hand with traditional modern reasonably efficient speakers.
Sure, there are those speakers which don’t fit into the traditional loudspeaker power needs mold such as panels or electrostats, and this ain’t about them.
The possibility of clipping a driver is about the only facet in amp to speaker matching which gives a person pause while pondering this or that amplifier.
I feel there is more to how good an amp is than its ability tou double output power with 50% drops in speaker impedance.
However, speakers are demanding more power lately. Many are coming out of the gates with 4 ohm ‘nominal’ IMPs which lower with fluctuations in frequency. Add in larger motors on larger drivers, multiple driver arrays, and on paper these SOTA speakers appear to need more power.
IMHO It is this note which introduces great concern.
I’ve read every article I can find on Vienna Acoustics Music. Each one says give them lots of watts for them to excel.
Many times good sounding speakers I’ve owned sounded better with more power, albeit from arguably a better amp.
I tend to believe having more than an adequate amount of cap power is indeed integral. … naturally the size and type of transformers in play possess a strong vote for an amps ability to successfully mate with speakers.
Controlling a driver’s ability to stop and restart is as well a key to great sound and only strong amplifiers can manage this feat. Usually this gets attributed to ‘damping’ factor, but damping as I read it is more a shadow than a tangible real world figure as it depends on numerous factors. Speaker cable length alone can alter damping factors.
A very good argument exists about those mega watt amps voices. Each 500 or 600 wpc amp or amps, I’ve heard have had stellar voices too, not merely more watts.
So is it predominately these mega watt power house amps souls or their capacities that fuels the speakers presentation?
Would you buy an ‘uber expensive’ amp based more on its voice or soul, than on its ability to output loads of watts, even if you feel the amp may be somewhat under powered for the application?
Choosing this latter option also saves one money as the more powerful amps do cost more than their lower outputting siblings.
Please, share your experiences if possible.
Tanks muchly!
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- 114 posts total
Picking up on Erik Squires’ reference to Nelson Pass.... I recently purchased a First Watt F7 amp. It generates 20 watts into 8 ohms and 30 watts into 4 ohms, so it doesn’t "double down". On a couple different levels it seems to embody "the less is more principle". I also think it shows not all watts are equally "capable". I’m mainly using it with moderately efficient Silverline Prelude Plus speakers (nominal 92 db sensitivity). Sound quality is extraordinary with the Preludes and was absolutely astonishing when the F7 was used for a short time with 87 db sens. Totem Forests. It won’t peel paint but the sound produced is "to die for". At the risk of being accused of exaggeration, listening with it is like going from B&W TV to color, if you will pardon the non-audio(phile) analogy. And this by comparison to many different higher power amps including tube mono blocks and, more recently, Hegel H200 and Merrill Audio Taranis (both still part of "the fleet"). In the interest of full-disclosure, while the sound with the Forests was absolutely magical (the best they’ve ever sounded) concerns about yielding to temptation and pushing the volume into clipping territory and damaging a tweeter led me to discontinue that experiment. SPL readings of upper 70s db at 10 feet diagonal from the speaker (C weighting; Slow response) were easily achieved beforehand with no sign of strain - very satisfying levels for late night listening. With the more sensitive Preludes, low to mid 80 db peak SPL are regularly registered at the same 10 foot listening position. Completely satisfying levels for the kind of listening I do. So, in reply to Blindjim’s question, "Would you buy an ‘uber expensive’ amp based more on its voice or soul, than on its ability to output loads of watts, even if you feel the amp may be somewhat under powered for the application?" The answer is "yes"...except for the uber expensive part. The F7 lists for $3000. (FWIW - I believe NP credits Dick Olsher with "the first watt is the most important watt" comment). For more info: http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/prod_f7_man.pdf |
absolutely astonishing when the F7 was used for a short time with 87 db sens. Totem Forests. It won’t peel paint but the sound produced is "to die for". Here is a classic example of a good amp that doesn't need too much current to drive this easy Totem Forest load, but the same amp on a hard load that dips down much further in impedance and negative phase angle would be very handicapped. https://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/TotFofig1.jpg Cheers George |
@georgehifi I agree the Forests are an "easy" load (as has been noted in the reviews) and attempts to mate the F7 with a low efficiency/low impedance speaker would NOT be a happy pairing. I suppose there’s no surprise that 20-30 watts are enough to get some sound out of the Forests. The bigger surprise for me was the quality of that sound and that the F7 experience turned on its head prevailing wisdom about Forests needing a lot of horsepower to sound their best. Many comments here on A’gon to that effect (I still believe this to be generally true, by the way). Not only was the F7 able to drive them but it did so in a manner producing the best sound I’ve heard from them to date, even when compared to that with a 200 wpc Hegel or 400 wpc Taranis. Imaging, sound stage, detail and musicality add up to a magical experience: sheer, seductive listenability. In my O-pinion, the F7 is not just a "good" amp but a great one (paired with the right speakers, of course!) and an even greater value. Make the F7 exhibit one for Blindjim’s contention, "...there is more to how good an amp is than its ability to double output power with 50% drops in speaker impedance." |
prevailing wisdom about Forests needing a lot of horsepower to sound their best. With this type of impedance and -phase angle, to they are EASY to drive, https://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/TotFofig1.jpg I would even say a 20w SE tube would do it. And they can’t drive ****! And here’s what Stereophile measured test concluded: "(fig.1) revealed it to be a very easy load for the partnering amplifier to drive. —will hardly stress even the most current-challenged tube amplifier." Cheers George |
- 114 posts total