Thanks all. Really.
The concern is how do you determine what amount of power is appropriate in advance?
And or, at what point should you become concerned with an amps power rating, if you know the speakers numbers, placement, and distance to the LP ?
As I understand it, on paper, a 91db sensitive speaker should develop 91db SPL at one meter (about 40 inches) with one full watt without room reinforcement.
At 2M with one watt the same speaker SPL halves so power must double. Add one more meter, and at 3m the power must double again to yield the same SPL developed at one meter.
Thus… at 3M a 91db sens speaker needs 4 watts. At one set freq. more if most of the bandwidth is being engaged.
Yes? No?
In my own case, the LP should never be more than 10 – 12 feet away from the front baffles.
My guess is 200wpc is plenty for generating aforementioned SPLs. Even a 120wpc amp would work for that matter. I think.
Every speaker I’ve looked into with interest have sens of 88db or higher. Most are 89 – 91db.
Using an older Radio Shak digital spl meter on speakers of 93db from a distance of 9ft from their baffles setting the meter to average peaks, a 93 to 96DB range was enormously loud. Irritatingly loud IMO. Maybe one song only kind of loud if I felt the need to Pour Some sugar on it, or dig a Whole Lot Of Rosie! Once.
So clipping looks like the bigger deal. That and providing the speakers enough power to keep the drivers on pace firmly.
Amps I’m liking a lot in no real order are Gryphon coliseum ypsalon Alieus, Constellation Imagine series, PSA BHK monos, Bermister (not the biggest one) BAT 655, and Master Sound classic
I might well be worrying about nothing. Although at these prices worry seems a necessary evil.
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Thanks for the concerned thoughtful input so far. It is sincerely appreciated.
Sorry. My bad.
I’ve been speaking in general terms as no actual decision has been made yet as to which amps or which speakers are getting married.
Given the fact I’m doing a lot of research and a goodly bit of speculating, and am flexible on which ones to pair up, I felt only certain parameters were necessary for determining the range of suitable power for a given load and specific speaker brands & models were not concerns
I listed the amps which intrigue me. All of which push at least 200wpc into 8 ohm loads. Most will at least say they’ll double with imp halving except BAT & ypsalon. Some offer 300wpc at 8 ohms.
Gryphon lands outside normal amp criterium with their dual mono amps base model pushing 150 @ 8, hteir middle unit is 160wpc @ 8; and their top model which is likely well off the table for me, is 175 wpc @ 8, and all double into 4, and then again into 2, and Gryphon boasts doubling continues into 0.5 ohms at 5K wpc in their top unit. All models offer Class A operation in 3 variable stages of 25, 50, or fully Class A, more or less in each amp, respectively. Slight variations occur depending upon model or better said, $$$$$..
Curiously, the two I envy most have reported similarities in their power outputs into 4 ohms at 320wpc. Ypsalon Alieus and Gryphon Coloseum. However, ONLY Gryphon is actually doubling as Impedance halves. Ypsalon does not. As well, both have more than substantial banks of reserves in their Cap storage. More than substantial.
In no real order the speaker short list is:
KEF blades, I & II, either or.
VA Listz or Music either or.
Wilson Sabrinas, Sashas, either or
TAD Evolution one
Longshots if found used:
Magico S5 latest ver?
Lanch 7?
Wilson XLS ?
YG ?
Eggelston Ivy, andrea II & III.
Of current production, I bleive all are 4 ohms. TAD & Wilson are lowest sens at 88 & 87db, respectively.
ONLY Egg Andreas are above the 4 ohm barrier. The balance of the lot are 90 – 91db.
Party level listening is NOT my gig. As said. Maybe a song or two now and then. Usually I’m reasonably sane and do not push things I’ve paid a lot of money for unless you can pour fuel into them… and those days, sadly are well behind me..
LP is usually set in an equilateral triangle and speakers are normally 8ft. apart, give or take a few inches. This will change but not quickly so it would be a decent rule of thumb..
Hope this helps.
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@georgehifi
Your input is well received. Thanks much. I’ve included a range of amps and speakers as well as approximate physical setup of the speakers in the room, so I hope this is sufficient info to help you see this issue more clearly.
Looking forward to your input. Thanks.
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@twoleftears
Thanks much. I recall your input on the Listz and appreciated it immensely.
I feel many speakers can be run by any number of amps, although better built and or more powerful ones will do a better job.
Of course, the heart or soul of what ever more powerful amp is a large question mark one’s preffs must get in tune with before it goes home with you.
I’m inclined to believe the Ayre INT is a nice unit, my thinking is that a gbit better amp, meaning more power and more prolific construction ought to show itself as a nicer arrangement. Or I sure hope so.
The Listz for me are sort of an afterthought and not the primary tartget. Albeit I’ve been around long enough to know anything can happen depending on how the storms of life get to tossing one along.
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My instincts say any amp I’ve listed in this thread will do just fine with any speaker also listed in this thread. But the pedantic obsessive aspect of me says, “make sure!! Don’t want any negative surprises.”
The one thing that keeps pestering me is when looking into amps which boast huge output power ratings as their standard character, like 500 or 600wpc amps, I’ve yet to find one which sounds bad. Almost regardless the setup. Big krell, big Macs, Lynns, MLs, even a big old Conrad Johnson tube amp was nice listening.
The way each amp handled the paired speakers was fairly evident too in that the sound was tight. Quick. Clean.
Harmonics and dynamics differ from one setup to another but the speed and pacing were taught and pronounced. IMO those attributes are the result of power.
I’ve only heard Mr. Hanson’s 400wpc monos, nothing else. Did not dig the setup but, those quick, claen, precise notes were evident there too. I did not know the power rating of the Ayre monos until I asked later, during the audition that they were 400 watt amps. I did feel from the onset these wre stronger than the usual 150 – 250 wpc amps I had been listening to earlier.
This is my ‘take’ on pairing speakers with SS amps. Be it right or wrong.
With tube amps, I’d lean more onto the loudspeaker’s tech and construction being kinder towards power in a more minimalistic view. Higher Eff & higher IMP.
With multiple cone drivers and low IMPs I get a different sense of direction if I feel I want to fuel them with SS amps.
Of course, money plays a SIGNIFICANT role. Always. At least to the point wherein I can rationalize it to myself. Hahahah.
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@georgehifi
RE – duplicate threads
I will only post going forward to the TECH TALK thread to confuse the current situation less. I would advise others do similarly.
Yes. I saw that. Dunno how it happened. Admin must have switched it from amps to tech talk without merging the posts into the latter one and deleting the former.
Getting in touch with admin has some substantial hoops for me to leap thru navigationwise. Sorry.
I’ve no control there… if anyone would care to ask them to merge these conversations into one TECH TALK thread it would be fine by me.
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aginst my better judgement, and because I don't want to duplicate posts amongst threads I'll reply here rather than onto the TEC TALK version of this.
well, that and because it just seems right to acknowledge those who took the time to voice thier EXP as it would be rude not to IMHO.
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@atmasphere > ….Bandwidth, not power
Blindjim > for well over a decade now, Ralph, you have been a wealth of information. Now and then no various topics I’ve been under educated in and all of that input has been well received and I am totally grateful for acquiring. Sincerely. Thanks..
Bandwidth. really? Wow. I stand corrected. I had felt via EXP only with the application of low and mid powered amps with various speakers along my way, that the more HP an amp possessed, though perhaps not applied fully, kept the drivers on point better. I found this very true with BW speakers which I had a bunch of models along my early years and then being a member here.
Atmas > There is an issue here, the harder you make the amp work, the more distortion it will make. You can see this in the distortion vs frequency specs of all amplifiers. The distortion is audible too- in the form of increased brightness and hardness, caused by higher ordered harmonics to which the ear is keenly sensitive, as it uses them to sense sound pressure.
Blindjim > now here is where things may become confusing to me.
Almost invariably I’ve noticed in friends outfits, that some were noticeably IMO underpowered as the sound in the mids and bottom end was well, I’ll go with ‘soft’’ or fuzzy. Not to the point of most people’s notice, but to my own appraisal. Again, I came to this revelation by moving up in amp power rating and build quality as time passed so it was actually an incidental observation. Albeit, a valid observation no less.
As well, the mids and top ends previous to the increase and as well improvement to the amp via upgrade, resolved much if not all of the so called ‘brightness’ and or hard (flat) tones.
Indeed the overall presentation became more realistic, better mannered, and musically accurate.
I do hear things somewhat better than many from the lack of sight. Although, I’d say it is more a result of being forced to rely upon it and use it unlike most. It ain’t from being hit with gamma rays or contact with red kryptonite that’s for sure.
However, I’ll acquiesce to your point. Somewhat more now, though controlling the drivers starting and stoping repeatedly seems a consideration for accuracy in recreating any tone purely and IMO was an attribute of the EMF or from the output devices of the amp.
I’ve been mistaken before. Never wrong but now and then, mistaken.. no problem. It doesn’t hurt as much any more.
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@georgehifi
Many thanks for your ongoing interest and input. Really. Thanks a lot.
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@inna
You are a true eye opener with the items you continue to bring to the table as options, choices, alternate paths and or insights. They are obviously ones I’d not have stumbled across alone. Huge thanks for these insights.
I’ll not try to meddle with you and Atmas obvious issue, but I’ve never seen Atmas post anything untoward or include his own products as an alternative path when he infuses his thoughts into a thread.
Perhaps, allowing other people to be other people might be a better tact, but then this is just something I’m obliged to pursue, no one else has to trod that road if they don’t want to.
Thanks Inna. Much appreciation.
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@Kalali > Really interesting....
Blindjim > hmmm. It do get that way around here from time to time.
Personally I’ve learned a lot here today.
So long as I can learn something new each day it’s a good day. And everybody has something to offer. Always.
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@inna > Whatever you do, whatever components and speakers you eventually choose, you will not get great sound. At best you will get a more or less acceptable sound.
Blindjim > OK. so be it.
Life is what it is. The restrictions advantages, or disadvantages it bestows upon us all, are what they are. Everybody is doing the best they can whith what they have to do it with everyday. No exceptions. I am. You are. Etc.
I’ve heard a fair number of systems apart from my own. I was a musician for many years prior to military service..
I do not see this trap you speaek of.
I feel your input here as well intentioned as it is, might be fueled with some bias as digital in your opinion is NOT the first priority for quality audio reproduction. That’s fine. Quality can be had in either hand. Analog or digital…. If one pays attention.
Digital source is what is to me to do. So I will do that.
My former system had a lot of ‘they are here’ in its presentation. The next one will have more. Guaranteed. It will certainly have more duckets thrown at it, so it better!! )
The idea of enjoying music is not a narrow pathway. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If when listening to music, my knee is bobing, a smile is on my face and or I don’t want to turn it off, something good is happening. Further along, if I feel I could walk up and touch the artist, singer, or musician, I’m quite satisfied I’m hearing exceptional sounds.
Will what ever I amass be on par with the top tier in ultra audioland? Nope. I’m not even considering such an aspiration. I’m content with landing this time somewhere a step or three beyond the ‘threshold of diminishing returns’. That’s all and that is not a bad place to be IMHO.
Chasing perfection in an imperfect world is sheer folly. I can live happily with outstanding, and excellent.
Neither will I be able, nor would I want to spend exponentially above such a level as I do not see adequate justification for the expenditure to have another house in my house, er, uh, living room or listening room.
BMW 7 series? Now, there’s a thought. And it could fit too. Maybe without the radio though.
thanks so much all the options though. very much. be well.
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