What percentage of audiophiles use a sub ?

I've tried integrating subs several times to varying degrees of satisfaction, but never really got a single sub to integrate well in my rooms and ultimately just went with full range speakers, which I've found more satisfying. The best integration by far, of subwoofers into a system has been with multiple subs - Audiokinesis Planitarium/Swarm system is a phenomenal success at doing just this, making it much easier to integrate that kind of solid low end seamlessly into a room (no easy task with a single sub). I'm not sure if Duke has a white paper on how this works, but he's the best spokesman for his own work and he contributes here regularly - you may want to seek out his words on subwoofers (user: Audiokinesis). There are also some speakers that utilize an integral active subwoofer to reach into the depths. This can also be very effective also, but those that do it well tend to be quite expensive, but they'll take up less real estate than multiple subs will.

Determine the kind of music you like and listen to the most. Then go to live events featuring that kind of music. If you then feel you need a sub, go for it. Start out at a lower level, both hertz and volume settings and slowly integrate it to as close to what you heard live.

The idea of using live music as a reference is a bit misleading on two counts: First it assumes the event you go to actually sounds good which is a crap shoot these days, especially with some genres. Trying to get a system to duplicate a live event on a large scale is an exercise in frustration. It certainly can be used as a point of reference, but don't expect to duplicate it. Turning up a sub to the point of trying to duplicate an amplified live concert is, IMO, a very bad idea. A subwoofer is meant to enhance a relatively narrow band of the low end. If you looked at most music we listen to you'd realize that not much music lives there. Yet the effect of a well-integrated sub is unmistakable. With the best integrated subs I've heard, like Audiokinesis system, you don't even notice they're there until the music goes down to those registers. Yet at the same time, a well integrated sub system will also enhance the midrange and low midrange by taking some of the demands off the midrange driver to produce low-end energy, so they are working there for you as well. When it all works well the effect should be totally invisible and natural to listen to, at least that's my ideal. A sub that makes itself ever-present is more likely to send me out of the (vibrating) room.

You also asked the question about headphones (OP) on another thread, and I'd echo part of my comment there - just to produce low-bass is one thing. But to to reproduce bass with accurate tonal shades, nuance, and detail that actually enhance the illusion of the instruments/sounds being reproduced is an entirely more demanding ballgame (much more so with speakers than with headphones, by the way). If you've heard the difference, you probably understand what I'm talking about. Of course if the kind of music you prefer is largely electronic dance music, or some similar genre that just uses bass as a coloration to a beat then you may be entirely happy with just about anything that reproduces a clean low-end without too much distortion, though it will still be need to be well-integrated with the rest of the music.

BOOM BOOM BOOM A BOOB SUBWOOFER MOOM LIKE BOOM BOOM BOOM REL OR BOOM JL BOOM AND MAYBE BOOB BOOB A VELODYNE BOOM IS NICE BOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMM

= subs done entirely wrong. "BOOM" is not at all the point. If this is the limits of your experience with subs then you've never heard subs well integrated into a system.

Well, perhaps some of my issue with subs and people's description's of "deep bass" is that almost no acoustically produced music goes anywhere near as low as 28Hz. Some pianos don't even go that low. An organ, some pianos, perhaps a doublebass provided with a low C extension, maybe a contrabass trombone, I'd have to look that up, or the very largest tuba, that's about it. And very rarely are those notes actually called for even on these instruments, and when they are, they don't sound anything like any sub I have ever heard, even a well-integrated one (I have heard them both in stores and in people's homes). So I do repeat that they are really only for movies and electronically produced music, and are simply not necessary for listening to acoustically produced music. In fact, if they are used for this, the result is invariably not realistic sounding, IME. The timbres are just not right.

A sub is not limited in function to the lowest reaches of its range. It augments a range where certainly less of the music lives, but pointing at just the lowest realms of that range is viewing its purpose through blinders - you are not seeing the whole picture. It also takes some of the burden off of the midrange drivers by supporting part of that lower range that they'd otherwise have to handle. Certainly I completely agree that subs are not "necessary" to enjoy acoustic music, but in my experience they can enhance my enjoyment of it. The music I listen to is pretty wide in scope - much of it is acoustic and vocals.

Mapman's #2 appropriately addresses Lear's comment. The biggest impact of my subs - BY FAR - is the peak/dip between 70hz and 120hz. I use 2 DRC subs and bassbusters and the measured response of my sytem in this range went from +/-14db to +/- app 1.5 db. I assure you that this is audible.

I'm in a discussion in another sub-centric thread and have been specifically addressing a consistent, room-generated dip/peak around 80hz(dip) that I've been battling for years with my room. Currently the two integrated subs in my speakers do not address it, nor has any speaker/sub combination (though I have not tried more than two subs at a time, which I think Duke is suggesting there). I was going to follow up some recent input there with this question: with such room-specific suckouts, will altering the position of the system in the room significantly alter where and whether that suckout occurs, or are they entirely independent of positioning? It seems to be more common than I was aware, and frequently in the low end of the music.

My experience goes along with Marty's comment that, though you may not hear it specifically (BOOMBOOMBOOM), having the fuller range does augment instruments and sound that live in the lower spectrum - music, especially the stuff in the lower octaves, certainly sounds different with the subs on vs having the subs off, even though it does not fall into the depths that define the limits of the sub/system.

More often than not (though, fortunately, not always), these days, I find live performances less than appealing in comparison to the intimacy that my system offers. Using live music as a sort of generic bar to achieve, therefore, makes no sense to me. Expecting to replicate a concert hall in your listening room is the stuff of huge, very expensive, speakers set up in larger rooms, moving a whole lot of air, and even then the experience falls short of the real thing in terms of shear scale (though the effect can definitely be breathtaking). Replicating "live" is the proverbial carrot on a stick attached to your head just out of reach. Yes, having a cello sound like a cello certainly does make sense, and in that case, a cello does sound more authentic to it's natural sound when (well-)augmented at the low end. Regarding the frequency range we can actually hear - there is also visceral impact that is not heard, especially in the low end. Those cues do go a long way in bringing the music home, as it were. Experiencing 28hz on headphones is not at all the same as experiencing the same in a room where the sounds wash over your body.

Yes, having a cello sound like a cello certainly does make sense, and in that case, a cello does sound more authentic to it's natural sound when (well-)augmented at the low end.

The lowest note on a cello is C2 which is about 65 Hz. That doesn't require a sub unless your recording has noises that include something other than from the bow on the strings.

The problem with many speakers is their response is ragged in this region due to room acoustics and speaker placement issues. Those issues can be addressed, but the answer isn't automatically a sub.

My case is a bit extraordinary in that my subs are integral to the speaker design and the speaker itself. The midrange driver handles above 100hz, and the integral subs are 10hz-100hz. So indeed the 65hz frequency of a cellos low notes is changed by turning my subs on and off. Previous to this I've integrated subs into my system crossed over much lower (in the 45hz range). There also, it seemed to make a difference to me in how the cello and instruments occured that reached similar lows that are NOT necessarily included in the spectrum covered by the sub. Sorry that I can't explain it beyond that, but that's what I recall hearing. I certainly admit that I could be influenced by expectations. The mind is a powerful thing.

Misstl - I only meant "extraordinary" in that the crossover point is probably a full octave higher than most standalone subs would more likely crossover at. Highly satisfied with my system, but still struggling with the room.

I've also included comments that reflect my past experiences with integrating standalone subs. Again, I've felt whether or not the range of the instrument dropped to the depths the sub was capable of, the sound occurred to me as different from without the sub on some occasions when I took the time to actually compare. Again, expectations could have come into play there. I've also had some struggle with integrating subs well, that made me want to scrap the whole thing. I don't think it's particularly easy.

Given the lack of the brick wall that you described, why wouldn't that be clearly understandable that such an effect were possible?

Marty - I have EchoBusters Phase 4 bass traps (discontinued I believe), in each corner behind my speakers, as well as some diffusion and absorption panels. They've made some audible differences, but where the peaks and dips are concerned, hardly any in the major suckout region.