My perspective is that people rad these threads mostly to learn, not for pure entertainment value. TO me it is a disservice for anyone to be going hog wild recommending potentially expensive tweaks without putting those in proper perspective compared to the things that matter most. That may be good for the tweak vendors business, but does little for those who rally want to learn how do practically get better sound.
What Does Holographic Sound Like?
And how do you get there? This is an interesting question. I have finally arrived at a very satisfying level of holography in my system. But it has taken a lot of time, effort and money to get there. I wish there had been a faster, easier and less expensive way to get there. But I never found one.
Can you get to a high level of holography in your system with one pair of interconnects and one pair of speaker wires? I don't believe so. I run cables in series. I never found one pair of interconnects and speaker wires that would achieve what has taken a heck of a lot of wires and "tweaks" to achieve. Let alone all the power cords that I run in series. Although I have found one special cable that has enabled the system to reach a very high level of holography -- HiDiamond -- I still need to run cables in series for the sound to be at its holographic best.
There are many levels of holography. Each level is built incrementally with the addition of one more wire and one more "tweak". I have a lot of wires and "tweaks" in my system. Each cable and each "tweak" has added another level to the holography. Just when I thought things could not get any better -- which has happened many times -- the addition of one more cable or "tweak" enabled the system to reach a higher level yet.
Will one "loom" do the job. I never found that special "loom". To achieve the best effects I have combined cables from Synergistic Research, Bybee, ASI Liveline, Cardas, Supra and HiDiamond -- with "tweaks" too numerous to mention but featuring Bybee products and a variety of other products, many of which have the word "quantum" in their description.
The effort to arrive at this point with my system has been two-fold. Firstly, finding the right cables and "tweaks" for the system. Secondly, finding where to place them in the system for the best effects -- a process of trial and error. A lot of cables and "tweaks" had to be sold off in the process. I put "tweaks" in quotation marks because the best "tweaks" in my system have had as profound effect as the components on the sound. The same for the best of the cables, as well. For me, cables and "tweaks" are components.
Have I finally "arrived"? I have just about arrived at the best level that I can expect within my budget -- there are a couple of items on the way. In any case, I assume there are many levels beyond what my system has arrived at. But since I'll never get there I am sitting back and enjoying the music in the blissful recognition that I don't know what I am missing.
I should mention that there are many elements that are as important as holography for the sound to be satisfying, IMO. They include detail, transparency, coherence, tonality, and dynamics, among others. My system has all of these elements in good measure.
Have you had success with holographic sound in your system? If so, how did you get there?
Can you get to a high level of holography in your system with one pair of interconnects and one pair of speaker wires? I don't believe so. I run cables in series. I never found one pair of interconnects and speaker wires that would achieve what has taken a heck of a lot of wires and "tweaks" to achieve. Let alone all the power cords that I run in series. Although I have found one special cable that has enabled the system to reach a very high level of holography -- HiDiamond -- I still need to run cables in series for the sound to be at its holographic best.
There are many levels of holography. Each level is built incrementally with the addition of one more wire and one more "tweak". I have a lot of wires and "tweaks" in my system. Each cable and each "tweak" has added another level to the holography. Just when I thought things could not get any better -- which has happened many times -- the addition of one more cable or "tweak" enabled the system to reach a higher level yet.
Will one "loom" do the job. I never found that special "loom". To achieve the best effects I have combined cables from Synergistic Research, Bybee, ASI Liveline, Cardas, Supra and HiDiamond -- with "tweaks" too numerous to mention but featuring Bybee products and a variety of other products, many of which have the word "quantum" in their description.
The effort to arrive at this point with my system has been two-fold. Firstly, finding the right cables and "tweaks" for the system. Secondly, finding where to place them in the system for the best effects -- a process of trial and error. A lot of cables and "tweaks" had to be sold off in the process. I put "tweaks" in quotation marks because the best "tweaks" in my system have had as profound effect as the components on the sound. The same for the best of the cables, as well. For me, cables and "tweaks" are components.
Have I finally "arrived"? I have just about arrived at the best level that I can expect within my budget -- there are a couple of items on the way. In any case, I assume there are many levels beyond what my system has arrived at. But since I'll never get there I am sitting back and enjoying the music in the blissful recognition that I don't know what I am missing.
I should mention that there are many elements that are as important as holography for the sound to be satisfying, IMO. They include detail, transparency, coherence, tonality, and dynamics, among others. My system has all of these elements in good measure.
Have you had success with holographic sound in your system? If so, how did you get there?
Showing 50 responses by mapman
"You stated, "I am not so certain". Certain about what? That a "strategy" you have no experience with may or may not work? This is like speculating about whether you will like vanilla when you have never even tasted it yet. More hot air. " I like vanilla. I have never tried jumping into quicksand either but I have a pretty good idea what to expect regardless. |
Hmm, my experience is it is not all that complicated. REcipe: 1) good quality gear 2) speaker placement away from walls(reflections travel a minimum 2X the distance of direct sound in order for proper timing/delivery of the recording in a 3-d/holographic manner). There is material available on teh internet last I checked that goes into this in more detail. 3) A recording made to sound 3-dimensional/holographic, ie recording technique results in sufficient 3-d/holographic sonic queues being captured in the recording. Many small ensemble jazz recordings are recorded this way. "Kind Of Blue" by Miles Davis is one of the best known. Mapleshade and related labels tend to focus on this aspect of the recording. Dorian is another label that does it well as does most Mercury Living Presence recordings. It occurs in most modern pop rocj recordings to some extent as well but varies widely from recording to recording. |
"Remember Carver's "Holographic" preamp." Yes, I still have one as a spare though currently on the fritz needing a repair. It played some l/r phase tricks to increase holography (not create it from scratch) and worked best for small monitors or other more directional designs. It also had some minor tonal side effects. It worked as described with my small Triangle monitors. Less so for Magnepans when I had them, and virtually no positive effect with my more omni OHM Walsh speakers. Also in the recipe I think I misstated the setup requirement somewhat. As I recall, in most rooms, reflected sound must ideally travel at least 10 feet or so further than the direct sound to reach your ears at the right time for best 3-d/holographic results. |
For the ultimate in out of the box holography (for a price), audition an mbl omni system properly set up. That is the best I have ever heard overall, but pricey and in a large showroom with many feet distance from rear and side walls. The OHM Walshes I use do nice job as well for much more reasonable cost, but I do not think they can deliver the soundstage depth that the full omni mbls can with their default configuration, which attenuates sound levels in wall facing directions to accommodate placement closer to walls than is desirable with true full omnis like mbl. |
I have also heard some small monitors do holography very well in smaller rooms. My Triangle Titus monitors do it very well even when I used to run them off very modest vintage Tandberg or Carver amplification (even with no Carver holography engaged). My Dynaudio monitors with right setup are no slouches currently in the holography department in my small 12X12 office room. I've heard Magico minis running off very high end electronics and wires do it very well also (for a price). Other quality systems can do it to varying degrees as well although room size, acoustics and associated limitations are often more of a limiting factor with many larger speaker designs. Cleaner power definitely helps as well from my experience to-date. |
Geoff. Each of us can obviously only assess relative to what each of us have actually heard. In my case and I'm sure in the case of many other experienced listeners I have heard a lot of live music and home and pro systems over the years. Many performances, many venues, many genres of music, many systems including many high end systems. I have a lot of practical reference in this area as I am sure many do. So what I mean by what one can expect "in theory" is each person's personal experiences and understandings. Theory is probably a poor choice of words in this case. ITs really more about having a reference standard and then attempting to hit it. |
I do think that clean power, however that is achieved in any particular listener's case, helps. I have heard this to be the case even when I first introduced my modest Monster power strip into my system. There are many threads here on A'gon about the effects of having clean power and how to go about assuring or achieving it. My recommendation would be to handle it once at the source via a power conditioner suitable for the task at hand. The best/most respected ones also provide specifications that clearly indicate power/current delivery and noise filtering capabilities so one can make an educated decision about which one to try. Wires/power cords and many other esoteric tweaks seldom provide much of anything in terms of specifications or other measurable attributes that can be used to make an educated decision. Even if it turns out a particular gadget seems to work, why it does what it appears to do is still a mystery and the chances of similar results being repeated elsewhere in any kind of predictable manner is probably low. |
Here's a useful principle that relates to applications of technology that can also be applied to optimizing home audio effectively. home audio tweaks fall into the 20% category of the Pareto Principle I would say. Personally, as one who seeks perfection in my home audio sound (yet knows that is not likely to happen 100%) I tend to want to well exceed the 80/20 rule when it comes to home audio matters. I would say I want my rig to achieve 90% or better of what is possible in theory. Some tweaking will be necessary to get that but realizing the fundamentals has a good chance of putting one in the game based on the Pareto Principle.. |
"With my system, you can move around the room and all the elements remain in place. It is quite uncanny. " Sabai, what speakers are you using and what is the configuration in the room relative to the listening position or area? Conventional speakers can be set up to somewhat emulate this aspect most commonly associated with more omnidirectional designs like mbl or OHM. I can say the same about my Dynaudio monitors setup in my 12X12 room. It generally involves a setup where tweeters are not firing directly at the listener and effective use of room acoustics to leverage reflected sound effectively similar to what omnis do more naturally. |
"Regarding discussion of various technologies which produce the "holographic" soundstage, I have found no greater technology than the Omnidirectional speaker." Agree, though as mentioned it is still quite possible with more directional designs as well with proper setup. ALso certainly quality speaker designs including use of quality transducers are key. Poor quality in the speakers will likely greatly limit or mostly prohibit what might be obtained via other subsequent tweaks including to power otherwise. |
Newbee, Substitute "directional" for "dynamic" and I would agree with most of what you said. I am not sure directional speakers are necessarily easier to set up with adequate results than omnis. I think it depends. In smaller rooms with limited placement options away from walls, that might be true. Tweaks are what they are...tweaks. You no doubt have to get the big things, starting with speaker and matching amp selection, speaker placement + room acoustics, right first for best results, not to say that good results might still be achieved otherwise, just not the best possible. |
One last breath of hot air I must add is that I am not anti tweak. However I endorse addressing fundamentals first, tweaks second. Some talk first about fundamentals, then tweaks, recognizing the relative importance correctly. Chadeffect is a good example. I have considerable respect for Chads comments on most any topic accordingly. Its those who focus on tweaks (user or vendor) without giving proper due accordance to the fundamental principals involved in good home sound and establishing some credibility there first that I tend to question. |
"The music is rendered holographically in three dimensions so that when you are seated in a different position in the hall the sound just takes on a slightly different aspect but does not cease to be holographically three dimensional." That is the thing often attributed uniquely to omnis. As I mentioned, my Dynaudio monitor setup that runs off this same gear as my more omni OHMs exhibit this quality as well, as do many well set up rigs I have heard at dealers and even shows over the years. The key difference I notice between the omni OHMs in particular and the Dynaudios in this regard is that with the OHMS, if I move say to the left the holographic image shifts to the right, much like in real life. WIth the Dyns, if I shift left, the image does as well. ALso the OHMs will continue to exhibit this behavior from most any location in front of the speakers, even if well to the outside of either. With the more directional Dynaudio monitors, the soundstage will tend to diffuse sooner if listened to from more highly deviant locations. |
mbl set up really well are hard to best in the holography dept. I have heard them that way at a local dealers showroom. There was 5-6 feet to the sides and 12' or more behind them + a lot of other room acoustic tweaks in place. The same dealers rig setup at shows I have attended were more back with the pack, largely do to less than ideal setup and room acoustics. So results can and will vary no matter how good gear may be. |
Look, if continuous tweaking is what floats one boat or keeps one of trouble, then by all means have at it and tweak away. I guess I'm more of a music person. The gear tweaks, etc. is just a means to an end for me. Once I am there I am done until something changes. I find I place less and less value in esoteric tweaks these days than in past when perhaps my gear was not performing up to snuff and I did not have the knowledge and finances needed to get the fundamental things right first. |
Sabai, The only issue I have with your approach is you make it sound like foreever tweaking and adding stuff is a good strategy to follow. I am not so certain. It may work for you, but how is another to replicate your results with that approach? I have to wonder where the difference between better and different lies. I have heard a lot of gear including many very high end or reference type systems. There is only so much that goes into a recording. It is not an infinite pool of undiscovered musical detail as many audiophiles might think. At some point, improvement in one area often negatively impacts others. Wherever it may be, there is a finite limit to how "good" something can sound. A lot has to do with meeting individual expectations that differ much from person to person. I do not doubt you system sounds great and holographic and whatever else. But I have trouble endorsing a lose strategy that is based on continuous tweaking. Where does it end? does it matter? That depends as well on ones goals. Having no specific goal and always tweaking and changing is as viable as any. Again to me its mostly about enjoyment. I take it seriously as well but once I get to the point where I can clearly hear differences in rrecordings with no real reservations over the long term based on a large sample recordings, I am good to go. My opinion is that powr and IC tweaks are probably required to get to where I like to be. Honestly, I could care less after that especially about things that make no sense to me. Not to say all esoteric tweaks are without basis, some are. All one can do is attempt to make informed decisions based on something that might even possibly resemble a fact. Its when one tweaks and spends just because they "think" they might be missing something and do not know what to do otherwise. At some point it becomes an obsession almost like a drug habit. That is the point at which I would become concerned if it were me. That's how I feel about it, right or wrong. There are many tweaks out there that may do little or nothing and have no negative effect on teh sound though teh effect on one's bank account might be significant. Or, not. It all depends. Some common sense is usually a good ingredient whatever way one goes. |
"Mapman, Please answer the following questions: 1. What "tweaks" do you have in your system? 2. Do you have any Bybee products in your system? 3. Do you do series or parallel cabling?" 1. Power strip, ICs, Mu Metal RF shielding for low output phono step up transformer 2. No Bybee products. Have never seen or heard. Same true of many other tweak products out there. 3. I use a single cable between each pair of devices. THe exception is my main rig runs through a Niles speaker selector that outputs to in-wall speaker wiring that runs to several rooms, so technically the speaker wires running into and out of the Niles are in series. |
"What you call my "strategy" has given stunning results. Since you have no experience with my "strategy" you are only left with speculation because you have no personal experience here. Just hot air." I suppose everyone that takes a different approach from another could say that. Its not hot air for me to say I would not endorse your strategy based on my experience either. THat is not to say yours does not work. IT may very well. Its just not the approach I would take. I always like to keep things simple. Sabai, does your system ever not sound "right"? WIth all those gadgets used, how much time does it take to isolate a problem to a specific device if it occurs? That has to be a disadvantage of your approach I would say. I simple system using as few devices as possible is much easier to troubleshoot when something is not working properly. That is a scenario we all have to deal with at some point in that all devices fail eventually and do not perform identically forever. I think that is an undeniable disadvantage to adding complexity versus keeping it simple assuming similar results can be achieved either way. |
":You stated, "I am not so certain". Certain about what? That a "strategy" you have no experience with may or may not work? This is like speculating about whether you will like vanilla when you have never even tasted it yet. More hot air." I have followed a strategy more similar to yours in the past and abandoned it in that it became to complicated to maintain. Were IO to change, I would look to make my system even simpler if possible, not more complex. Of course your realization of your strategy in terms of the specific configuration is likely unique and different from most any other it sounds like. THe only way to make a valid claim that yours is superior would be to have a direct comparison to another system in an unbiased manner. In lieu of that, any claims of superiority by any of us is just hot air. The benefits of keeping any system as simple as possible in order to achieve results is pretty hard to argue though I think. |
Look, the bottom line is Sabai has his way which works for him. I have mine. We each have our own. If it works it works. Best practices that others might leverage is where it becomes interesting. Not everything that works can be a best practice. Best practices are usually the roadmap one wants to follow. I'm sure there are some best practices relating to audio tweaks that might be discerned. Getting a concensus on what they are is probably a challenge. In lieu of best practices, it is the user who assumes the risks associated with exploring lesser understood territories. They may strike gold or go bust. It all depends..... |
Csontos, I would tend to agree that the home audio territories we are discussing are very well understood and not all that complicated on grand scale of things. No doubt there are still some frontiers though. You can explore on your own or hire a guide. If you hire a guide, be sure you can trust them.... |
Tweaking to me is essentially fine tuning the sound to achieve a goal. With this definition, I have done a lot of tweaking to my system over the last 4-5 years as well to get to where I wanted to be. Pretty much everything save my turntable and tonearm changed. None of my tweaks were what I would consider "esoteric". I had some understanding of how each change worked. Predicting how wires specifically analog ICs would affect the sound was hardest. In the end, only listening told the whole story. My most uncommon tweak was use of Mu Metal for extra shielding needed to reduce inducted noise in my phono rig. Mu Metal is used for this purpose in many applications over the years and its principle of operation is well documented and understood. The mu metal needed cost $30 direct over the internet. Compare to Shakti stones. Those are much more attractive looking I am sure. Do they work as well or better than Mu Metal? I do not know. The Mu MEtal addressed the issue well so there is no issue to address anymore. I guess my point is tweaking is essential to fine tuning the sound to reach a goal. I prefer to work with things I understand well especially when expensive. YMMV. |
"For my system "tweaks" are much more than fine tuning. They are as important as components and often have as great an effect as changing a component." No doubt, tweaks can have a large effect as much as anything. I observe this as well with simple IC changes for example. Again, to me, anything that changes the sound is a tweak. Changing DAC, amp, IC, power source are all tweaks to help achieve a desired goal. But not all tweaks are created equal some do nothing except change the way the user thinks, perhaps the mind matter interaction that Geoff is so fond of touting. |
FWIW, I added an elliptical training machine to my larger listening room where my large OHM F5s reside yesterday. I had to do some significant re-arranging of furniture including a large cushioned couch. THe speakers remained where they are and have been for months now. Yes, the sound changed! I am of the opinion that any change to what resides in a listening room effects the sound. The only question is how much and in what way. Some effects are so small however as to not be noticeable or significant, at least to human ears. I also have no doubt that placing certain objects close to electronic circuits may very well have an effect. Again the questions are how much, what is the change, and is it for the better or worse or perhaps even a mixed bag. I suspect the third case is the most common, ie many well designed tweaks produce a combination of both positive and negative effects. However, the mindset initially is to listen for anything that might be different as positive. Over the long term, the assessment might change as our thought patterns change. More mind/matter interaction..... |
"You can't hear the sound you worked so hard to get, the sound that's actually there in the room, because your sensory perception is hurt by the objects, patterns, images, and information - books, CDs, DVDs, telephone books, etc. - in the room." GEoff, seriously, what do I do to hear the sound I've worked so hard for? Please tell me where to put all that stuff correctly! I think you must know something you are not telling me. Its not fair to scare me like this and not help if you can. |
My sensory perception is what it is, I think. Maybe I could ask a doctor how to improve it. Or maybe it just is what it is. Like a barrier island. You can fight mother nature with jetties, dredging, etc. but mother nature will win in the end. It is what it is? At least last time I checked I do not have any telephone books in the house thanks to the internet. |
GEof, I know you are a vendor, but its really not right to point out these problems without offering a solution. IT sounds like you know this stuff and have some solutions. IS it your products? Just be forthcoming and tell us how to solve these problems that it would seem most are not aware of. I need answers. Otherwise, you know the saying, ignorance is bliss.... I honestly believe that sometimes! |
Chad, I'm pleading the ignorance is bliss plea for now regarding fuse replacement for the purpose of tweaking the sound. When the time comes to replace a fuse, I will consider your recommendation. No doubt a good cleaning done right and a good quality replacement fuse can only ever help. I might be willing to drop $20-$30 bucks on a fuse at that time when there is a need, but as may know I can be notoriously cheap and stubborn sometimes, especially when there are still 2 kids to send to college. |
The uprights on my new elliptical training machine somewhat resembles a Shakti Hallograph. IT got me thinking if it might be affecting the sound. Too heavy to remove for a/b testing though, so I will simply ride the thing and live with whatever its effects may or may not be. If I like it, I may add a treadmill next. |
The thing is, with my OHM speakers in particular, you get a large holographic sound stage wall to wall out of the box with most any decent placement. The location can be tweaked significantly then to optimize the focus. Then there are 4 3-way level adkustments on each speaker that provides 1000's of potentially different sounds/tweaks from there. Add the right amp, a decent pre-amp and the right ICs and you are pretty much done. |
"In a medical sense, this strange idea could easily be considered delusional perception, i.e. the misattribution of a non-hallucinatory perception to objects or events to which they are utterly unrelated." That's one explanation, but I do not think so. Another is that GEoff really knows something that others do not. ANother is that it is a form of obfuscation. Maybe others..... Only Geoff knows this for sure like so many other things apparently. |