Like anything Kenjit there are good ones and very bad ones. Horns can be the absolute worse sounding transducers you have ever heard.
However since developments with low power tube amps there has been increased interest in horns with marked improvement in sound quality.
Any multi-way speaker should be listened to at a distance including horns. Near field listening requires a one-way speaker like Quads or old Acoustats. Their sound doesn't change at all when you get close to the speaker. Very weird. I knew a person who used Acoustat 1s almost as headphones. If you closed your eyes you could imagine a large hall or concert venue. Open your eyes and everything collapses. Visual cues can ruin everything.
The efficiency of horns and their directional dispersion (an advantage) are intriguing but I have yet to hear a horn system that I would take over an ESL. Maybe someday. |
Many people from experience with small sub-less ESLs rightfully think that they are not very dynamic, can't do rock etc. If the ESL is big and tall enough they are extremely dynamic and if you sub them correctly things like snare drum snaps have a realistic authority that can only be matched by a live snare drum ( I play the drums. In my dreams I am Billy Cobham)
Same for floor toms and bass drum. After all the ESL is nothing but a big drum head. Soundlabs 945s are actually used for sound enforcement in smaller venues.
I know this is a horn thread. Horns have the capability to be the ultimate point source speaker. Magico certainly thinks so. I'd love to hear those things but I wish someone would do it at a realistic price.
ESLs make the ultimate line source. They are the best impedance match to air and they need no cross over till you get down to the sub. |
phusis, thanx for the links. Wonderful story. He has done what I mentioned trying to do with K horns, triamp them and time/phase align the horns. It would be great experiment to try. Horns match the impedance of the driver to the air. That is exactly what ESLs do except the ESL diaphragm is already at the impedance of air so you don't have to do any matching. ESLs are not as efficient and larger but probably take up less space because they are so thin. Both speakers limit dispersion into the room lessening room effects. Implemented correctly both speakers are detailed and dynamic although more than likely the ESL is more detailed and the horn more dynamic. A horn system should be less expensive to set up as you do not need such big amps and the best ESLs are not cheap but I believe SoundLabs 845s are around $40.000 which puts them towards the bottom of luxury speaker world. |
Ok Ralph. Let's see you get a pair of Avantgarde Trios by your wife. Make them in pink:) |
Wow mahlman, who stepped on your toe? I like the possibilities horn speakers offer and I congratulate you for doing your own thing but most horn speakers go loud cleanly and that is about it. There are some that push the horn into extremely high performance regions like the Avantgarde Trio but they are very expensive and very big. Most horn systems that I have seen and heard had phase/time issues that prevent them from imaging up there with the very best planar, ESL and dynamic speakers. If you put a crossover at 450 Hz and the lower driver is in reality 3 feet behind the mid range you have an unacceptable delay right in the most sensitive part of the spectrum. Middle C is 256 Hz. The sound might be clean and dynamic but the image is going to lack resolution and the ultimate detail missing. In photographic terms the image is blurred. Every folded horn speaker suffers from this and I challenge you to live with an unfolded 20 Hz horn, talking about penis envy. The solution to this problem is using DSPs to provide digital time/phase correction and multiple amplifiers which the 300B groupies, the horn users, refuse to accept because god help us if we don't stay analog. Horn users are telling us that the fix is worse than the problem and we, I, am saying the problem is way worse than the fix. I think that wonderful horn systems can be integrated into normal home spaces with the help of digital correction and If I had the money right now I would love to try it. You are already invested so why don't you give it a spin? |
Ralph, I was reading about Classic Audio Speakers the other day. They also sell their components separately to DIY guys. How do the field coils work? I am not familiar with this design and have never gotten into the specifics of horn design. Probably should study this a bit. Those Hartsfield speakers are real lookers. I remember when I was a kid listening to JBLs with that same horn lens that were mighty impressive back then.
Simonmoon, I think the problem with horns imaging is that the first crossover is usually in a terrible place at around 400 Hz. Remember middle C is 256 Hz so this is smack in the middle of the midrange where our ears/brains are extremely sensitive to phase. To make the speakers more space efficient the bass driver and midrange horn are staggered in space or as in speakers with folded bass horns the woofers are actually 3 feet behind the midrange horn. The speakers are phase incoherent at a critical place in the sonic spectrum which I believe is the cause of the vague image you get with many Horn speakers. Avantgarde deals with this in the Trios by placing the drivers in the same plane resulting in a very large open air system. It may be that many horn lovers do not listen for or even care about the most accurate imaging. |
mahlman and just how do you time and phase align your horns? Tell me how you use DSPs correctly. I would love to know. |
That is only ball parking it mahlman and quite crude. What about the effects of the cross over? A really sophisticated system will measure frequency response and delay with a microphone and a computer will calculate the adjustment filters and display them on the screen. These can then be applied directly to the DSP or modified manually to suite. The final correction filters are then stored in files. The system I have been using for 20 some odd years will keep 9 files loaded and selectable by remote control. I even have files for different listening positions. My Desk is in the back Left corner of the room. I place the microphone there and the computer will calculate the delay from each individual speaker and subwoofer so that it arrives at my desk at exactly the right time so I have a perfect image and frequency response way off center in the back of the room. mahlman, I'd love to watch you put a midrange horn 3 feet behind a wall:)
Kenjit the fulcrum of the Fletcher Munson curves is at 3000 Hz which most of us would consider the bottom of the high range. Magnepan crosses to it's tweeter ribbon here. It is this frequency that makes sibilance so annoying and those of us with DSP control of our systems put notch filters here. The frequency scale is logarithmic. Middle C, 256 Hz is at the lower end of the midrange. Low C or 128Hz I think most would consider the bottom of the midrange. High C is 512 Hz, the next octave 1024 then 2048 and so forth. You should listen to a test record to get a feel for what these frequencies sound like so that when you make comments you might be able to know what you are talking about. |
Thanx Ralph. I got it, an electromagnet of sorts. I'll look around to see how the drivers are constructed and get some more history on it. I think Classic Audio Loudspeakers sells these drivers. Would be fun to play. I have a lathe with a 40" swing on the outboard side. I can turn any round horn up to that size. Thinking off the top of my head if I could get a horn to go cleanly down to 100 Hz and up high enough that I could cross to something like a bullet tweeter keeping it a two way system I could put a subwoofer array under it. I always think up things that can't be done.
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johnk, it sure sounds like you don't like horns. I'll bet you even have an EMI logo tattoo. |
I'm with you realthing. I mentioned earlier in this thread that I would love to triamp and digitally correct K horns. I use digital compensation on my subwoofers and could not match them correctly without it. People who are digital adverse are missing out on amazing technology. |
realthing, I am not very well versed on horn design...yet. How big would a horn have to be to get down to 125 Hz? My understanding is that under usual conditions a single horn can cover 3 octaves. So this horn would make it to 500Hz where you can cross to a smaller one. But how big?? |
Building a folded horn that does not resonate in some way is not an easy trick. I've been reading a bit and the rule of thumb is that the circumference of the mouth has to be equal to or greater than the lowest wavelength you want to reproduce. But what curve would you use. Exponential, Tactrix? How big should the mouth be and how the heck do you bury the woofer in there? Then you have to fold the whole thing up.
MrD you were probably smart just to get the Lascalas.
There are several like that on the forum. I try to correct any gross errors so some neophyte won't get headed in the wrong direction. Perhaps I tangle too much. But, I hate BS.
Mike |
mahlman, you might be stepping on the wrong toes. If you message me I will send you pictures of my shop and some of the speakers I have built,
along with front entry ways, dinning room tables, chairs and stools, kitchen islands, cradles ( a favorite with the ladies) and miscellaneous furniture.
I do not think my last post indicates that I have a lot of horn knowledge. Quite the opposite. This is due mostly because of lack of interest. I prefer ESLs. Specifically very large line source dipoles. But that does not mean I can't appreciate the technology and see where it leads. Excuse me while I turn the record over.
There we are. Now on the third side of Louder Than Bombs. Shyness is Nice!
Obviously I am not authoritative on horns. If I wanted to build one I could but it would take a lot more research and probably a few trial runs.
Am I pretentious mahlman? Have a look and you tell me. |
mahlman, and just what is wrong with any of that. DSPs make you shiver? Trivial facts scare you? Did I do something to fracture your version of reality.
johnk, I can make the frequency response and image perfect anywhere in the room. I can make the system do any response curve I like. Your perfect may be different than mine. I like my bass on the heavy side. This is not magic it is a very well engineered room control system. And perfect does exsist. My wife is perfect:) |
Very sad mahlman. We come her to discuss issues, ask questions and learn. If I say something you disagree with then explain why and continue the discussion. But you would rather ostracize people. I wonder why.
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Oh and Mahlman don't you want to see some pictures? |
