Seems we have one answer of A and Yes, and three of B and No. It will be interesting to see if the skepticism rate hovers around 75% as responses accumulate.
|
Guys, we're not going to change opinions via mockery and disdain.
It's evening up; I have the results at 3 favorable and 4 not favorable.
Let's continue... |
Stands even at 5 responses for each reaction, positive or negative.
|
I appreciate all the responses, and the effort to maintain courtesy despite strong opposition in terms of conclusions. Again, derision accomplishes little and unnecessarily alienates fellow audiophiles. At the moment, as clearly as I can tell the tally is: 6 answers aligning more with "Gift" and 8 aligning more with "Snake Oil". It's an interesting phenomenon that some have found only a particular fuse to win them over. If I'm not mistaken the bulk, if not all, fuses available to audiophiles are AC power fuses (But, I haven't researched all available aftermarket fuses for HiFi.) If someone has information otherwise, please correct me on this. :) Another interesting phenomenon is that I haven't seen an instance yet of someone saying that adding too many fuses to the system was detrimental. It seems in most cases that those who agree with the efficacy of fuses are in the "more the better" camp. Though I am not pushing the conversation in this direction, I would find it interesting to see what the breakdown is in terms of attitude toward fuses and attitude toward cables. I suspect that most who have tried fuses have found aftermarket cables efficacious, and most who feel fuses are snake oil have stayed with lower cost cables and or stock cables. It would seem to me that the two activities would hang together. We might also see a wide variance in total system cost as regards fuses. I would not be surprised to see systems in the $15K+ category using aftermarket fuses, while those in the $2-10K category would not. Imo, that has no bearing on the efficacy of fuses, but says more about the attitudes about it. Thank you to all who have participated; I hope we see many more tallying up their experiences and opinions. :) |
What's the minimum cost on an efficacious enhancement to an audio system, $1k? ;) Maybe for cables it's $100-200 each. Heh, heh, heh...
|
kosst_amojan, kindly refrain from stilted comparisons to religion. I could go on at length about Darwinism and the foolishness associated with it both historically and currently. So, kindly refrain from the cheap shots. Thank you. :)
Since when are audiophiles "normal people"? We are atypical, obviously, when it comes to music listening, due to the depth in which we involve ourselves in the hobby and gear. Do I give a rip what I appear like to a "normal" person who doesn't get audiophilia? Not terribly. I'm not doing anything illegal or immoral by the hobby, so why should I care what "normal people" think? Frankly, I think "normal people" are in LaLa land when they don't use their brains to process music and the messages associated with it, so I do NOT wish to be "normal" in that sense. To me "normal" means often mediocre, average, uninspiring, etc. So, if you want to take your cues for what you do in an audio system from "normal people", you will end up with mediocre sound and experience. So, again, I could care less what "normal people" think. I suppose there are audiophiles out there who feel constrained by not wanting to look abnormal, so they don't pursue an ultimate system. What a sad thing that would be, to have passion for it and be too self-conscious to live the dream.
Take nearly any hobby - creating those little fake sceneries for fairies comes to mind (people actually spend inordinate amounts of time crafting, then placing miniature scenes for fairies. Now, if you want me to question someone's thought patterns... I won't get into that here, but that makes a fuse look downright sensible!) - and you will have people who seem over the edge. Cosplay fans make audiophiles look downright pedestrian.
The pattern is simple enough to deconstruct;
Disdain and disbelief that a product can be efficacious
Determination that it is not worth the money
Mockery
People are free to do so, but there is a cost associated, the potential to improve the audio system. No try, no potential benefit. The wallet is protected at what cost?
Far from snake oil, imo fuses are the Acid Test of system building. That's why I started this thread. Fuses bring the question of efficacy down to a $50 price point. Imagine an audiophile who rejects a $50 potentially efficacious improvement to the system in favor of a particular $2-5K component improvement without hearing either one. Now who looks "ludicrous" and who looks "normal"?
|
I don't think either camp has the market cornered in terms of zeal or fervor. Let's try to be civil and stay on topic.
I find there is always disdain for the claim that a change to a wire of shorter length is efficacious. Power cords are derided because, "The power company.... miles of power lines, etc." Similarly, fuses seem to be discounted merely because of their smallness, or short, thin wiring? That may seem common sense initially, but logically I find that erroneous when it comes to power and signal transmission.
As to the pricing, I think there are people who hold absolute values for products and will never vary regardless of the claims made, and there are those who value objects such that they can see the cost relative to the goal. This alone will assure there never to be universal acceptance of fuses, imo. |
Fuse directionality is a quagmire; it is of little use arguing it here. There is no advantage to discussing it and it only muddies the conversation. It only offends the sensibility of skeptics. The question will not be settled by discussion of directionality. I'm sure some will disagree, but imo you're wasting your time arguing it with those who don't even accept aftermarket fuses. It's similar to claimed directionality of cables. You largely waste your time debating it with someone who doesn't even think aftermarket cables are significant.
|
In all matters of what can be heard in systems we cannot discount the influence of hearing loss, ambient room noise, and the level of equipment. That varies across the audiophile universe, so we should expect a certain amount of divergence of opinion on such things as fuses, even among those who have tried. As for those who haven't tried, these variables don't matter. ;)
niskymichael, interesting that the power fuse held change, but the other signal fuses did not. Have others reported/experienced the same?
|
niskymichael, all the more compelling experiential evidence of fuse efficacy considering it was an amp following a heavy hitting power conditioning component. Doesn't surprise me at all.
|
geoffkait, I was referring to criteria that would likely be agreed upon by all audiophiles. Beyond those three it becomes difficult to find agreement. |
I am not interested in debating it with you. We have little in common on many aspects of audiophilia, and I am not going to take the time to argue something like this. Feel free to hold and voice your opinion, but debate it with someone else. :) |
Can we find some balance here? No one will be swayed by mockery and condescension. I would like more input from those who have used HiFi Tuning Fuses in comparison with others. What particular fuses were considered superior or inferior and why? |
It's always interesting to see what people think motivates others. There is a fascinating dynamic at work in that; a person chooses their mentor, whom they will or won't trust - and that has enormous sway over the outcome of their rig, and their happiness as an audiophile. Worldview and unspoken priorities/principles dictate whom you do or do not trust. That, in turn dictates the selection of components and methods, what the HiFi looks like in front of you. Finally, that determines much of whether you will enjoy the music. So much of this hobby hinges on trust and disbelief. Especially with analogue. LOL :) |
georgehifi, I would appreciate it if you showed more respect toward me as the OP. You have thus far suggested that I have ulterior motives tied to sales of fuses, and now are overtly calling this a "snake oil" thread, as though I started it with ill intent. Some facts for you; I don't give a rip about how many fuses any particular comapny sells, as this is completely independent of any activity I pursue privately or as a reviewer. My writing is detached from the marketing and sales of any company whose product I review. The one perk I get is industry accommodation pricing on products. I fail to see how that should motivate me to endorse a class of products if they don't work well. It's not good for my reputation if I back junk. So, I don't back junk. In this instance I bought fuses as would any audiophile from a local dealer, paying the going rate. I was not ready to invest a lot of time to conduct a review if fuses were not efficacious. I had no incentive to promote fuses one way or the other; I wanted to discover whether they had efficacy in system building. I have learned through handing products that it's the best way to tell whether a class of product is worth pursuing. I was exploring this for my own benefit, then for the community's benefit. So, it's been my extra time, my money expended for this. I didn't get some fuses free, then direct people to a manufacturer. It seems you have jumped to some conclusions that are unwarranted. Now, if you want to call fuses as such "snake oil" I can't stop you. But, please don't impugn my good intent with smearing the thread with accusations of promotion of snake oil. For your information, I likely will pursue fuses further, because the use of only one fuse of two variants in a power supply on a DAC has proven highly efficacious. If you don't want to believe me that's ok. I can't force you to try an aftermarket fuse. I'm not going to malign you because you don't believe it. But, at least give me some respect for having good intent and above board practices. I envision that the day could come when we become fast friends here! I don't think that's too far fetched, as it has happened several times before. I would rather not be combative, but have friendly discourse. I have found that the cost of the fuse at about $50 conferred an equivalent change to many expensive cables, and even components. Do I know how? Not at all. Even engineers don't know how. But, it's easily heard - and do mean easily by most people. So, iI'm requesting some respect in this matter. Now, if you feel in your certainty that you do not need to respect me, nor anyone else who supports aftermarket fusues, then I think I'm done speaking with you. :) Finally; to the community - PLEASE, this is a quagmire, as I said previously. Belittling and ragging at people will accomplish NOTHING toward getting them interested in exploring alternative system setups. Let's be cordial and invite some good exchange. If georgehifi wishes to contact me and see if we live near enough to have him visit, I would be happy to have a fuse swap session to show him what I'm experiencing. :) |
It might be interesting to see how many fuse Skeptics and Adopters own digital or analogue front ends. Could we add this to the survey? If you are a Skeptic, or Adopter, do you have a digital, analogue or both sources?
(Yes, the info is available in some members' virtual systems, but that's a pita to mine the data)
I am a fuse Adopter, with digital front end.
|
mitch2, off topic; I glanced at your rig, very nice! I’m a bit confused, as I see two different speakers indicated as the Ariel 5. I am curious about them and which one is now the reference/main.
(I certainly do not want to sidetrack the entire discussion) |
gdhal, good point! Two thoughts; any fuse replacement is going to require entering the unit. Most of the manufacturers I know who object to opening the unit hold an absolute ban on it, regardless if it is a fuse or other part. Some even place a tamper proof seal over the access to the component so they will know if it has been opened. So, the question regarding aftermarket fuses and such manufacturers might be moot. You are right, in such cases voiding a warranty for replacing a fuse would be high price to pay. That should be weighed, and if I had such a component I likely would not replace the fuse in it. Sensible enough.
In other cases, however, when it comes to a fear that a manufacturer would void the warranty, I think first it would have to be demonstrated that fuses had the capacity to actually cause damage. We have seen nothing along those lines here (Unless someone wishes to offer an example, but I think they would be rare to non-existent). When you have a fear of voiding a warranty doing a "DIY" change that has perhaps a .0001 % chance of damage, or maybe even less, then that fear, imo, is unfounded. Most manufacturers would know this. In fact, they likely would be highly suspicious of anyone who claimed the fuse caused damage for that reason. The odds would be far greater that the person damaged something else while in the act of trying to place or remove a fuse. But that would be horridly clumsy, and such a person shouldn’t even be inside a component. YMMV
Regardless, I think you raise a good point, and though I don’t agree with it entirely it is something to be considered. :)
|
Just to be clear, I'm not advocating copper slugs. That will have to be dealt with in the COPPER SLUG AS REPLACEMENT FOR AFTERMARKET FUSES, WHICH ARE DEBATED AS EFFICACIOUS, OR AS SNAKE OIL forum. ;)
|
In case I haven't made it known previously in this forum, I have conducted double blind testing using the Audio by Van Alstine ABX Comparator (see review), and I passed the testing in regards to all components and cabling with the exception of amps that were level matched.
Thus, I have no interest in discussion of blind testing, for it is a moot point to me. My interest is whether a person has used fuses and whether they think a fuse is a gift to the community or snake oil.
I also asked whether a person is a fuse skeptic or fuse adopter what is their primary source, digital or analogue.
I will add that I wish to avoid discussion of other debated products here, such as Machina Dynamica products. Please save such discussion for other boards. I am not making any declaration about such products here in this thread. I do not wish to put this thread into a quagmire about debate of other products. I appreciate the creativity in additional tweaks of fuses, but I do not wish for that to become the primary discussion. Thank you.
|
Apologies, geoffkait; I thought that the Quantum Chip was a Machina Dynamica product. I did a bit of searching and see it is not. Thank you for pointing that out.
My goal is to curate the thread to prevent as many tangential discussions as possible. I have no problem with such things being discussed, but imo if they are discussed here it becomes a quagmire to the primary objective of seeing the results of the survey and discussion pertaining solely to the efficacy of fuses. |
Everyone's entitled to speculation. It doesn't mean they're right. I have helped a few well known manufacturers in regard to their speculation. After listening, they "revised" their speculation. :)
I don't see unanimity on fuses among manufacturers.
You pick your authority, you get your results. |
With the stock market now falling fuse skeptics will really be against them. Anyone whose primary objection to a tweak is monetary will never try it if their portfolio is losing. The tweak loses efficacy proportionate to their losses in the Market. ;)
But, hey, you can reduce your expenditures on components perhaps 10%, from $5K to 4,500. That will really help you achieve your dream system in this difficult time, as opposed to buying a $50 fuse. |
Feel free; line up your $4,500 to $5K. :)
|
jetter, apology accepted.
Can we have more contribution from persons who have/are trying aftermarket fuses? Or, additional contribution from those who are trying them ongoing?
|
I had not disdained fuses; I've had too many experiences where products in the signal or power path have proven to have an effect, if not entirely efficacious, i.e. worth the money. I simply have too much going to think about them.
I finally found the motivation to try. My answers: Fuses are, all told, a gift to the audiophile community, and I plan on trying some more of them. I doubt that my conclusion will change due to continued usage, but if so I can revise my conclusion.
|
geoffkait, how about we just don't talk to each other? No anger, but I just don't care for you. You present yourself as trying to be so helpful, then nitpick and irritate. So, please leave me alone. Thank you. :)
|
Can we return to productive conversation?
Now, where is our volunteer among the skeptics who will try an aftermarket fuse? It's not like I'm asking you to put up $1,000 for a cable. I'm guessing someone is willing to take a $50 risk to see if fuses make a distinct difference.
|
Moderators, feel free to clean up and close the thread; I've gotten what I wanted out of it. I suspect if it is allowed to continue the rancor that was found on the other thread will increase here. I would rather this be closed than to lose the good exchanges on the thoughts behind trying or not trying fuses. :)
|
Better not tell the skeptics that someday their components will have aftermarket fuses inside. ;)
|
gdhal, I think within 4-5 years it could become commonplace for upper end manufacturers. Some will avoid it, and that is to be expected. Among the early adopters of new technology as manufacturers I think several will incorporate it within a couple years. I know more about this, but I am not discussing it publicly at this time. |
Imo it is irrelevant to reference DIY or Mods as an argument that aftermarket fuses are without merit. The question was not fuses in comparison to DIY and Mods, but in comparison to stock fuses. Obviously, modded gear would benefit similarly from aftermarket fuses.
I guess the premium designers and manufacturers don't know what they are doing when they use subjective listening as their final step in tuning a design. Some of the assertions here are ludicrous and show profound ignorance of the industry activity. :(
|
Thank you again to participants. You are supplying the necessary information for my purposes. :)
|
Imo one of the most foolish notions in HiFi is the idea that the better the design, the less sensitive it is to changes. That's called mediocrity in my book, and if any piece of gear operated on that principle, I would consider it junk. |
Kosst, I will explain that your description of aftermarket fuses is misapplied, as your other descriptions of the effects of aftermarket fuses wherein you discount them. You conclude that they can do nothing exceptional, so obviously you think aftermarket fuses are superfluous.
Well, you're wrong. Aftermarket fuses are not sucker bait, but a purposeful change to effectively alter the sound. A fine HiFi component should readily reveal any such changes. Any component which would mask such things is junk. If you made an amp that was insensitive to aftermarket fuses I would consider it a horrid design.
|
Al, cogent thoughts, as usual, and with cordiality. I wish all discussion on Agon was like this.
My statement was intentionally hyperbolic. However, I do not believe - at least I have never encountered in 12 years of reviewing dozens of components of a wide variey, and building literally hundreds of systems - there exists any HiFi component which is absolutely insensitive to cabling. I suspect the same is true of fuses. I have no reason to doubt it, and hopefully with time I will have a tremendous amount of experience to either correct or affirm my guess.
My point is that if sensitivity to external hardware was so low, the component would be awful. My evidence is the dozens of components which vary in sensitivity to external gear, as you have explained, yet every single one is easily influenced by cabling.
I really need to get some more fuses and push this through. I'm smart enough to know that if one or two more fuses produce a mediocre to nil effect, I'm wrong and they are a complete crap shoot. I'm also smart enough to know that if four or five unique, random systems with aftermarket fuses produce efficacious results, then the odds diminish rapidly that aftermarket fuse benefit is system dependent.
|
Another fuse change - actually, I'm working with the same same two HiFi Tuning Fuses in a different DAC, this time the Eastern Electric Minimax Tube DAC Supreme. The Border Patrol DAC SE responded readily to aftermarket fuses, and now the EE DAC has also responded readily to fuse change.
The results were once again not subtle, with such an easily discernible difference as to formulate a tentative conclusion that all DACs are sensitive to fuse changes, having tested a NOS DAC and an ESS Sabre laddered DAC. One or two more DACs chosen randomly and tested, and the conclusion will be well supported. I presume these findings will extend also to all other components, but with time I likely will have opportunity to explore that.
Again, this is only changing one fuse location to an aftermarket fuse. That's all it takes for me to hear the importance of fuses in altering sound.
If the results continue on this path it will become obvious that the audiophile has not achieved their best effort at SOTA sound if they ignore aftermarket fuses.
|
